Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[Ansem]

They've been pondering tunelling the Jane LRT from Wilson. If the entire thing was DRL that would be about 28 km. That could easily come in at $10-billion if they were starting construction now. If the construction index returns to it's 10% level, and it's another 5-years before it starts, it could easily be $15-billion before they start.

Perhaps he was speaking off the top of his head ... but I don't see any reason to declare his incompetence ... it's not like the TTC has actually studied it yet.

a "supposed TTC chairman" who can't see PRIORITIES even after yonge shutdown is an incompetent.

he would rather dig Jane and place LRT all over the place than having the guts to say:

You know what? we should put all our energy into DRL. There's no shame in admitting your priorities were wrong...

Besides, he will never be elected mayor...

I just hope the next one will have more common sense

 

[TTC12]

Might be worth mentioning that the first new Subway trains are due to commence service in the first quarter of 2010, that is January, February, and March. The test train or unit call it what you will, has already been delivered, and testing has started.

So it seems everything is on schedule with the new subway trains.

 

[nfitz]

I just hope the next one will have more common sense

Given your complete lack of common sense in advocating that that $billions be spend on a single project, then surely you have no basis for opining on the subject!

If the only way you can advocate for a project is to start lying and bullshitting then no one is going to take you seriously.

 

[kettal]

a "supposed TTC chairman" who can't see PRIORITIES even after yonge shutdown is an incompetent.

he would rather dig Jane and place LRT all over the place than having the guts to say:

You know what? we should put all our energy into DRL. There's no shame in admitting your priorities were wrong...

Besides, he will never be elected mayor...

I just hope the next one will have more common sense

If he had responded to the question with: "yes, a DRL would solve every problem we had last Wednesday", then I would be concerned about his logic!!

 

[GraphicMatt]

I'd also worry about anyone who radically alters long-term capital projects that have already had millions of dollars of work put into them simply because of a six-hour shut-down caused by a construction accident.

The TTC chair position is a tough one. I look back on the Moscoe years and I think Giambrone has done a much better job, but it still seems a rather thankless and brutal job that can easily torpedo political aspirations. I wonder if Giambrone got it because no one else on council wanted it.

 

[Mike in TO]

What the hell?!! $10 billion for the DRL up to Eglinton? Maybe $10 Billion from Finch to Dundas West, or even Jane. Now, I'm totally assured of Giambrone's complete incompetence in transit.

I think if the many of the group on here wants to get serious about DRL advocacy you have to start getting serious about what the realistic costs will be. The TYSSE is already having significant cost over-runs during the station design phase and a shovel hasn't even gone in the ground.

Hard construction costs have been rising well above inflation over the past few years and the regulatory environment in Ontario that would govern the construction of a DRL has also changes significantly over the past few years. Things like the Toronto Green Standard, the Accessibility for Ontarians Act and new brownfields regulations that will be coming forward next year add very very significant costs (policies with respect to inert fill in particular will be very significant). Also this isn't suburban and greenfield construction like north Toronto - most of the DRL will traverse urban communities that are well over 75 years and in most cases over 100 years old - there is a lot of 'stuff' in the ground that will complicate construction. Anyone who thinks this can be done for anywhere around $300m is living in a dream world....

edit: I should add the Pape will be a very complicated station to construct (more so then changes to Finch or Downsview with the TYSSE or proposed Yonge extension) as will the points where the DRL crosses the Yonge line and University Line and the connection to Dundas West - these stations will likely cost more than anything in the current plans for the TYSSE. Plus additional TR cars and yard capacity. I'm certainly a very pro-DRL person, but the costs will likely be much higher than what's been assumed by some here. Giambrone's estimate and other ball-park figures by people I've heard from that would actually have an idea of what those figures might be around are far far higher than some of the figures I've seen floated here.

 

[hbl33]

The reality "here" is only Toronto, where mass movement for subways has died out...

I still don't get this question; if NYC is willing to push for 2nd Ave. Subway @ $17Bil, how is TTC is reluctant to plan on DRL, or even Queen St. in the first place? Why is politicians here are becoming more backward than Americans in infrastructure? Developing subway in NYC is much more complex and more costly than T.O. counterparts...

 

[Dan416]

To be fair, Toronto is a lot more timid than NYC. We can hardly compare to them. Or London. Or Paris. Or Tokyo. Or any big city with a subway system that we envy. Vienna. Madrid. Those are all bigger, more important cities than Toronto. We can never compare. Toronto just isn't good enough.

 

[Rainforest]

... Also this isn't suburban and greenfield construction like north Toronto - most of the DRL will traverse urban communities that are well over 75 years and in most cases over 100 years old - there is a lot of 'stuff' in the ground that will complicate construction. Anyone who thinks this can be done for anywhere around $300m is living in a dream world....

edit: I should add the Pape will be a very complicated station to construct (more so then changes to Finch or Downsview with the TYSSE or proposed Yonge extension) as will the points where the DRL crosses the Yonge line and University Line and the connection to Dundas West - these stations will likely cost more than anything in the current plans for the TYSSE. Plus additional TR cars and yard capacity. I'm certainly a very pro-DRL person, but the costs will likely be much higher than what's been assumed by some here. Giambrone's estimate and other ball-park figures by people I've heard from that would actually have an idea of what those figures might be around are far far higher than some of the figures I've seen floated here.

Well, there are complexities associated with this project ...

But:

1) I think we don't even need Dundas West in Phase I. A line that starts around Spadina (& Queen, King, or Front - dependent on the selected alignment), crosses the core of CBD, crosses Danforth, and ends at Eglinton / Don Mills, will provide tremendous relief for Yonge.

2) Interchange(s) with Yonge and University will necessarily be very complex and expensive; but what is so special about Pape / Danforth to make that interchange particularly expensive?

3) Can any saving be found by running the line alongside the rail corridor east of Jarvis or Sherbourne? [I guess this is only practical if Front or Wellington alignment through CBD is selected.]

4) In case Gardiner between Jarvis and DVP is taken down, can a section of DRL be built there?

And finally, when Giambrone mentioned 10-12 billion, it is not clear what length of DRL he had in mind; but if he meant the 10-km downtown - Eglinton East segment, that would translate to $1000 - 1200 million per km. Does not that sound outlandish ...

 

[rbt]

I still don't get this question; if NYC is willing to push for 2nd Ave. Subway @ $17Bil, how is TTC is reluctant to plan on DRL, or even Queen St. in the first place? Why is politicians here are becoming more backward than Americans in infrastructure? Developing subway in NYC is much more complex and more costly than T.O. counterparts...

2nd Ave subway is a really really bad example to use of development progress.

It has been in progress for nearly 80 years and actually started construction, the first time, in the 70's.

FYI, that $17B doesn't include the cost of the bits which did get completed in the 70's. If you divide the length of the 2nd Ave line by $17B to get a cost per mile you will get an incorrect answer.

 

[MisterF]

To be fair, Toronto is a lot more timid than NYC. We can hardly compare to them. Or London. Or Paris. Or Tokyo. Or any big city with a subway system that we envy. Vienna. Madrid. Those are all bigger, more important cities than Toronto. We can never compare. Toronto just isn't good enough.

Madrid and Vienna aren't bigger and more important than Toronto. Madrid is similar in size and importance and Vienna is smaller and less important. There are plenty of examples of smaller, less important, and less wealthy cities than Toronto that have bigger subway systems.

Nearly all cities with smaller subway systems have better downtown coverage. Vienna, Lyon, and Brussels each have 4 lines in their central cores, Athens and Lisbon have 3, even Prague has 3 with another planned.

 

[hbl33]

2nd Ave subway is a really really bad example to use of development progress.

It has been in progress for nearly 80 years and actually started construction, the first time, in the 70's.

FYI, that $17B doesn't include the cost of the bits which did get completed in the 70's. If you divide the length of the 2nd Ave line by $17B to get a cost per mile you will get an incorrect answer.

Yes, it is true that it took +80 years to plan and still constructing the subway, but at least they have now progressed it (THAT'S my point). It is shame that they've been wasting time too much though, and lots of subway opportunities are still missing out in other boroughs as well.

My complaint is that if TTC follows MTA's steps, it would be more disastrous than the long-delayed SAS project.

 

[BMO]

Madrid and Vienna aren't bigger and more important than Toronto. Madrid is similar in size and importance and Vienna is smaller and less important. There are plenty of examples of smaller, less important, and less wealthy cities than Toronto that have bigger subway systems.

Nearly all cities with smaller subway systems have better downtown coverage. Vienna, Lyon, and Brussels each have 4 lines in their central cores, Athens and Lisbon have 3, even Prague has 3 with another planned.

Don't forget, even Montreal also has much greater coverage in the downtown area compared to Toronto.

 

[rbt]

... but at least they have now progressed it (THAT'S my point).

Still a bad example. Only about 20% of the plan is funded and there is no expectation that funding for the rest will be found for quite a while. 2nd ave subway probably will not be finished for another 50 years.


DRL is important. Please pick a better example for 'getting stuff done'. Canada Line in might be a good pick, as might the Georgetown corridor or Spadina Line extension.

 

[Tewder]

The reality "here" is only Toronto, where mass movement for subways has died out...

I still don't get this question; if NYC is willing to push for 2nd Ave. Subway @ $17Bil, how is TTC is reluctant to plan on DRL, or even Queen St. in the first place? Why is politicians here are becoming more backward than Americans in infrastructure? Developing subway in NYC is much more complex and more costly than T.O. counterparts...

It's not the movement for subways that died but responsible governance. I get tired of people making money the issue. The cost of public infrastructure is an investment and we need to stop funding 'luxuries' when basic essentials are needed: why are we building bike lanes when we need more transit (sorry to pick on bike lanes, it's just the example of skewed prioritization that comes immediately to mind). We need to hold politicians accountable who given the choice are almost always going to direct funding to the demands of interest groups and pressure groups who repay them with votes rather than spending responsibly in the interest of the larger, and unfortunately apathetic, public.

Over the past ten or so years the EHealth scandal provincially and the Sponsorship scandal federally together alone would have gone a long way for transit expansion without even a single extra penny being directed away from legitimate programs. How much other waste and corruption is there that we are not or have not been aware of? Ponder this the next time you're stuck in traffic for two hours, late for the very job you need in order to pay all those taxes.

Toronto's lack of subways and the region's lack of an adequate and sustainable integrated system of public transit is about nothing other than political malaise and corruption and that is the simple truth.