Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[W. K. Lis]

If the Downtown Relief Line will be heavy rail, it will need connections to either 1 Yonge-University-Spadina (not likely) or 2 Bloor-Danforth.

If the Downtown Relief Line will be light rail, I can see less disruptive connections using portals near the streetcar lines to get between the DRL and the existing and proposed LRV facilities.

 

[Whoaccio]

^
Why would the DRL need connections (i assume you are meaning actual joined tracks, not just transfer stations) to the YUS or BD? I'm pretty sure that the DRL in any configuration other than a 3 stop bypass between Pape and the CBD will need its' own maintenance yards and storage facilities. We could probably fit one somewhere in the DonMills/Eglinton vicinity without too much difficulty.

 

[Tewder]

I really dislike the idea of connecting two disparate subway lines into one. I want a Queen Subway. I also want a DRL. It doesn't mean I want to connect the two.

I see your point here. Looking at the map of the proposed alignment there are still large swaths of the downtown that are inaccessible by subway. This means the new proposed DRL essentially facilitates the commuting into and out of the city rather than the travelling around within it. This is part of the issue but not the whole one, surely.

Maybe it's better to bite the bullet now and plan for two lines (The Queen or Dundas Line and the Front/Lakeshore/rail corridor line). Given the snail's pace that things move at in Toronto it only makes sense to push for everything we can get now as the opportunity and growing momentum we are seeing wont likely come around again for a long time. The bottom line is that Toronto needs to catch up with its lagging public transit infrastructure and it is better to accurately assess the need and go for it now, than stretch the pennies and comprome the end result.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The Sheppard line is connected at Yonge and Sheppard, while the Bloor-Danforth line is connected at between St. George and Spadina, as well as between Bay and Yonge. Should the DRL be heavy rail, a connection could be made possible between Dundas West and Keele stations via the underused Vincent yard. A tunnel will be needed between the DRL and the Vincent yard tracks. Most likely they would have to tunnel under Bloor to get there.

A possible 25+ condo development (Giraffe) at the north-west corner of Dundas & Bloor could have a possibility, at the current moment, of digging a tunnel allowance for a DRL and Bloor-Danforth connection, before it is too late.

 

[jwill]

I agree it will likely need a track connection to an existing line. It will require new yard space to be built, and I cant see any space for a yard near what will likely be phase 1 of the DRL (Pape to Spadina, give or take) I'd say its more likely greenwood yard would be used for DRL, and another yard built for BD service (Around Kipling, or Warden maybe).

There is space along the DRL route, but its too valuable to hold a subway yard, unless the TTC wants to be daring and allow development over the yard. I'm not sure I trust the TTC or developers to get that right.

In the future a full-size yard serving the whole line could go somewhere between the Don Valley crossing and Eglinton, or in the industrial lands around West Toronto Junction.

 

[junctionist]

The Junction could have a station as a terminus of the DRL. The area is fairly dense with lots of development potential and perhaps a couple of suitable underutilized industrial sites for a yard. The subway could also reduce congestion on Keele north of Dundas (both ways), which is quite bad at rush hour.

 

[gweed123]

The Junction could have a station as a terminus of the DRL. The area is fairly dense with lots of development potential and perhaps a couple of suitable underutilized industrial sites for a yard. The subway could also reduce congestion on Keele north of Dundas (both ways), which is quite bad at rush hour.

On my fantasy map, I actually had the DRL extended all the way to Pearson, but at least to Eglinton would be reasonable. Possibly extend the tunnelled section of the Eglinton Crosstown west to where it would meet the DRL.

The junction is a logical location for a yard, but I don't think as a terminus. I generally think Bloor or Eglinton would be preferred (maybe St. Clair, maybe).

 

[Second_in_pie]

^^I still think it'd be better to serve that corridor using the Georgetown line. Just two additional stops at the Junction and Eglinton would provide excellent service and a lot of connectivity.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Yes what should be built is a DRL using a southern routing and once construction begins on that planning for a local Queen line should begin.

The DRL would have wider station spacing to keep it time competitive with the B-D/Y route. While the Queen line will have closer station spacing to serve the dense area that it would cover and to lessen the impact of losing the queen line.

 

[CDL.TO]

^^I still think it'd be better to serve that corridor using the Georgetown line. Just two additional stops at the Junction and Eglinton would provide excellent service and a lot of connectivity.

Doesn't St. Clair deserve a stop?

 

[gweed123]

^^I still think it'd be better to serve that corridor using the Georgetown line. Just two additional stops at the Junction and Eglinton would provide excellent service and a lot of connectivity.

I think that corridor would be best served with an express/local combination. Local being run by the TTC, express being run by GO transit. That way they can operate independently before fare integration is implemented, and then in tandum after it's implemented. I outlined how this might look on my fantasy map, which I uploaded a few months ago, I forget in which thread though, so I'll just upload it again to save everyone from digging through to find it.

 

[EnviroTO]

Only until Bathurst, after that it cuts north, and bisects 4 major streetcar lines, giving the potential for transfers from the streetcars onto the subway.

But it doesn't replace any streetcars. It leaves them all in mixed traffic, competes with them stealing away their passengers, and leading to lower service frequencies on those routes.

There isn't much room along the north side of Queen either (Osgoode Hall, City Hall, Old City Hall, Eaton Centre). The only E-W street with development potential along it that is closer to Queen than to Wellington is Richmond. And even then, a mere 40 metres or so.

There are the properties on Richmond, the bus terminal, the club district, the whole area around Queen and Jarvis.

Why would you go to Jane? Tunnelling all that extra distance for what? You're passing south of High Park for most of it. You'd be overlapping the Waterfront West LRT on top of it. Dundas West makes far more sense, especially given the tentative plans to extend the Jane LRT south to Lakeshore.

I would eliminate the Queen streetcar, split the Waterfront West LRT from the Lakeshore West LRT with Waterfront West running Union to Roncesvalles, and Lakeshore West running Port Credit to Windermere. No duplication of services at all. I'm putting no stops under High Park. By going to Jane it connects with the Jane LRT. Jane south of Eglinton is too narrow and would require tunnelling and so would Pape on the Don Mills LRT line so it might as well form part of the DRL.

The way to fix the problem is to reduce the number of people that use it by offering more attractive alternatives.

Your plan makes existing services less attractive, duplicates service, eliminates nothing.

With the Metrolinx plan there will be frequent non-stop trains from Exhibition, Bloor, Danforth, and Kennedy to Union. It is cheaper to make the fare 2.75 on those and allow TTC transfers than it is to build a subway. With all GO lines going to Union, the Yonge-University line going south to Union, and the Waterfront LRTs going to Union.... who is out there thinking "I wish there was a way to get to Union".

With GO maxing out Union with its plans, the University Line being extended to Vaughan and new westerly LRTs dumping riders onto the University Line, and the Yonge Line being maxed out... the point of a DRL is to serve downtown and to require as few trips possible to need to transfer to the Yonge-University subway. The way to require as few transfers as possible is to place the line in the middle of where people are going downtown (Chinatown, Queen West, Eaton Centre, Central Business District, etc.). A subway on Queen makes the whole area from Dundas to King walkable and therefore people don't need a transfer. If connectivity to the waterfront is required then we should extend the Bay tunnel from the waterfront up Bay to Queen.

Union has adequate service. Spend money to service places that don't.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Yes what should be built is a DRL using a southern routing and once construction begins on that planning for a local Queen line should begin.

The DRL would have wider station spacing to keep it time competitive with the B-D/Y route. While the Queen line will have closer station spacing to serve the dense area that it would cover and to lessen the impact of losing the queen line.

I think that Queen would be fine just with the Transit City-style LRT. Give it a tunnel between Spadina and Parliment or something, and you have a real rapid transit route through downtown. It'd increase capacity, speed and reliability, and wouldn't take away from the character of (m)any neighborhoods at all.

But I agree that after the DRL is built, they should start considerations for something on Queen, whether it be Subway, LRT or a pedestrian mall with elephant taxis

 

[gweed123]

But it doesn't replace any streetcars. It leaves them all in mixed traffic, competes with them stealing away their passengers, and leading to lower service frequencies on those routes.

And a subway along Queen wouldn't negatively impact the service levels along King and Dundas? Yes some people would walk from these streets to Queen, but what about those that don't want to/can't? If a Queen subway was built, the service frequencies on Dundas and King would drop like a rock.

My plan wouldn't significantly decrease frequencies, because people would be using the streetcars to get to the subway. It just changes the nature of the lines, from main lines to feeder lines.

Queen is great for LRT, not for the DRL.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If one streetcar should be replaced by the DRL, it is King. This is quite obvious. Of course, a DRL may be a very poor streetcar replacement...mess with the alignment and the stations too much and people will continue to use Yonge. The city really needs to consider what will happen to service on all the E/W lines post-DRL...one E/W subway line cannot serve all of downtown and we don't want service on other E/W lines trashed.

We need to really study how far and where people will walk after getting off the DRL. People won't walk north or south for 5-10+ minutes anywhere near the YUS loop - they'd continue to use the YUS loop via Y&B & St. George. If College gets a second south entrance w/Aura, for instance, it'd probably guarantee most of the Ryerson crowd will not transfer to the DRL unless it's north of Queen, which isn't going to happen. The only way to divert traffic from Y&B to the DRL is to extend the DRL beyond the B/D line...it's just as easy getting people off Yonge as it is preventing them from transferring to Yonge from the B/D line, maybe even easier when you consider the hordes of bus riders feeding Yonge (and Spadina). Extending north of B/D will also permit the line south of B/D to be designed more as a downtown subway line that serves downtown neighbourhoods and not just a barebones relief connector.

Unless someone has detailed schematics of every basement and parking garage and PATH connection, it's too early to say how difficult one corridor vs another would be to build...triple platforms at interchanges are likely unless there's absolutely no room. In this city, everything is deemed impossible at the start, but perhaps King is the most impossible corridor.