Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

Darkstar416 said:
Realistically, if a fully built-out Sheppard subway were to be funded, I think it would likely steal potential money and momentum from the DRL movement.

I get the sense that those against the Sheppard LRT on this board aren't doing it because they necessarily want the Sheppard subway extended right away, but part of a longer-term plan and they don't want the LRT impeding that. For instance, they might be happy with bus-only lanes for the next 20 years until there's a better case for finishing the Sheppard subway.
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I see it in a kind of different way. It might take money away from the DRL, but it could also start momentum for more subways. If people see a new subway line constructed and being used, they would see how good Subways are for the city. I think more people would be supportive of new subways because of this than people would be critical of more subway building.
 
I think most people already think subways are useful. The question is, would a Sheppard line convince people that more of their tax dollars should be spent?

I would suggest that if anything, the DRL would make that argument, as it is likely to be useful to a greater segment of the population, since it serves the downtown. The Sheppard line in contrast would only be really useful to people who live in the northeast of the city.

Not that I'm against the sheppard line...
 
Second_in_pie said:
I see it in a kind of different way. It might take money away from the DRL, but it could also start momentum for more subways. If people see a new subway line constructed and being used, they would see how good Subways are for the city. I think more people would be supportive of new subways because of this than people would be critical of more subway building.
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Ah yes this explains why there has been so much progress in subway building since Sheppard subway opened.
 
jwill said:
I think most people already think subways are useful. The question is, would a Sheppard line convince people that more of their tax dollars should be spent?

I would suggest that if anything, the DRL would make that argument, as it is likely to be useful to a greater segment of the population, since it serves the downtown. The Sheppard line in contrast would only be really useful to people who live in the northeast of the city.

Not that I'm against the sheppard line...
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Why do you think europeens have better transit?

Subways should be seen as an INVESTMENT rather than an EXPENSE. When something is necessary you invest in it. PERIOD.

They get it (madrid, London, Paris) Why can't we?
 
Ansem said:
Why do you think europeens have better transit?

Subways should be seen as an INVESTMENT rather than an EXPENSE. When something is necessary you invest in it. PERIOD.

They get it (madrid, London, Paris) Why can't we?
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They also have the density to support it.
 
Paleo said:
They also have the density to support it.
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I'd bet the Sheppard corridor is as dense as any and every suburban subway corridor in Europe (edit - or some urban/central corridors, for that matter). Transit usage tends to be higher for other reasons than density.

Not that density matters. Riders do. There's no density at Wilson or Warden, nobody lives at Yorkdale, etc., yet these stations are all well-used.
 
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Firstly, Paris and London built the bulk of their network about 100 years ago, and its been the backbone of their urban transportation for about as long. They havent built much lately. Actually, Paris has been concentrating on tram lines in the last few years.

Secondly, they have the density. Sheppard itself may have the density of a European avenue, but about 100m north or south of Sheppard there is virtually no density (unlike Europe).

Thirdly, in the case of Madrid, they've been injected with an awful lot of EU money that Toronto is not likely to ever see.

Paris, and now London, have largely switched from dense subway networks to wider commuter rail networks (RER, Crossrail, Thameslink, Overground). We're doing the same with our GO electrification and various system expansions.

Its a bit ridiculous to say we need a suburban subway in Toronto now, because much larger and denser european cities built subways decades ago.

I think the sheppard subway is useful, but I dont think it should be a top priority for us, given the other projects we have on the books and the finite resources we can throw at transportation projects.
 
TTC to study downtown relief line

Subway extension; More detail on project needed: commissioner

Allison Hanes, National Post Published: Friday, August 21, 2009

The Toronto Transit Commission plans to seriously study the feasibility of a new downtown subway line, as an idea that's been dubbed the "missing link" in the city's transit network gathers steam.

TTC chair Adam Giambrone said yesterday the analysis of the so-called Downtown Relief Line would start this fall and likely involve public consultations next year before wrapping up in 2011. While studies on the line were carried out in the 1980s, Mr. Giambrone said yesterday more detailed analysis is needed to propel the idea forward.

"The study in 1989 was very preliminary," he said. "We need to do much more real engineering."

He did not offer a pricetag for the work, which is still subject to budgetary approval, but said Toronto council voted last spring to explore reviving the long shelved U-shaped subway making a wide swoop through downtown as a way to ease congestion on the Yonge line when it is extended to York Region.

"It and the Yonge North are twinned, if you will, as projects, so Yonge North had a fair bit of development and we're winding that up," said Mr. Giambrone. "And those resources, staff resources... will be reallocated to do work on the Downtown Relief Line."

Pushing the subway north would likely necessitate a costly and complicated overhaul of Yonge-Bloor Station and Toronto has expressed concern that picking up passengers outside the city could displace existing riders closer to downtown.

A brand-new DRL line would take traffic off the Yonge line, bringing passengers from the east and west sides of the Bloor-Danforth line and connecting up such neighbourhoods as Riverdale, Leslieville, the Distillery, East Bayfront, Liberty Village, Queen West and Parkdale.

Preliminary estimates peg the cost of redoing Yonge-Bloor Station at $1-billion and the price tag of a brand new subway system at just over $2-billion.

Councillor Michael Thompson (Scarborough Centre), who has championed the Downtown Relief Line at city council, the TTC and Metrolinx, the regional transportation planning body, said the new subway just "makes sense."

He sent a letter to Metrolinx officials this summer to ask them to move it up from the region's 25-year horizon. He met with TTC staff to discuss the idea last week.

"The fact that the TTC is reviewing and studying it is good," he said. "Obviously I can't predetermine the outcome but I know what I think needs to happen and obviously I'm pushing for it, but it needs to be on the table."

The DRL would have benefits for transportation planning, city-building and economic development, he said.

"It provides a much more efficient opportunity for transit in this city and it's been a missing link for quite some time," Mr. Thompson said. "Therefore it would be a great benefit from a passenger perspective to the TTC, both those in the downtown core, the 905 and so on."

ahanes@nationalpost.com
 
[QIsn't that proof that the people have more power than they think when they make themselves heard???

Before the DRL movement, the TTC wanted only a renovation of Bloor-Yonge, then they said...maybe after 2020 and now, they will start this fall...

Ha! (this is for those on the Sheppard east LRT thread who think there is nothing that can be done to force the TTC to rethink their position)
 
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If you think the TTC shift on DRL is as a result of "people power" your deluded. It's simply the result of someone running the numbers on what the Pape-Queen link would do to passenger loadings on the Yonge line.
 
People power definitely played a role and you'd be "deluded" to think it didn't.

However, yes, all the people power in the city can't make a case as well as what the passenger loads on Yonge would like like once Yonge North is finished.
 
A few prominent activistist may have bent some ears. Steve Munro seems to have been quite persuasive with his advocacy for a downtown subway. But the whiny whinging here ... please.
 
Hmm ... you'll have to refresh me on the timing on that ... the city seems to have shifted it's thinking in January ... but I don't know much about the MyFace timing.
 
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