Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[Rainforest]

They most certainly would not feel that way unless told to feel that way by councillors, but the councillors could simply be told to feel a different way, as well, as was seen in something like the SRT replacement process.

I don't think they are so easy to manipulate. Whether it is SRT / SLRT / subway to Scarborough, they feel they are getting something, perhaps not the best choice, but something tangible. So, they conceded.

But if they are promised a new line and then it is taken away entirely, they won't be content.

If anything, suburban 416 folk would appreciate not putting up with years of construction for no end gains - and in the case of Finch East, possibly even a worsening of service.

If Finch East in its current form (just Yonge to Don Mills) is canceled, I bet nobody would complain. In fact, there might be quite a bit of opposition to that segment, once residents of Finch east of Don Mills find out that the proposed change guts their bus service.

Finch West is probably welcome by the residents, I did not hear any complaints (except proposals to place it in the hydro corridor instead of the street median). The gain on that route will be very real, just by avoiding the traffic gridlock. I know first-hand how Finch W works during the peak hours.

Not so certain about Sheppard E - it was originally supported by the local councillors, but recently some Sheppard businesses opposed it. Anyway, Sheppard E alone would not pay for DRL, we need about 1 - 1.5 B more.

Do you really think people in suburban 416 don't use the subway system downtown? They probably use it more than downtowners do, who can walk or drive or cycle much easier.

Some do, but others travel outside downtown. Besides, there exists some territorial jealousy, "under-served suburbs" versus "subway-rich downtown". This was the reason to hold off the DRL for decades, long before any light-rail plans.

 

[AKS]

As the Waterfront West LRT runs from west Union Station, I don't know what it has to do with the Don Lands - which are East of Union.

ops I meant Waterfront East. There's street cars running a long Waterfront West. I guess they're trying to upgrade the street car to LRT so the system gets upgraded. There's a lot of plans going on for waterfront west. Maybe having LRT is one of their plans to improve the area.

 

[Rainforest]

I'd cancel the Sheppard LRT and the Finch East LRT to finish the Sheppard Subway to STC.

Good point, but some more money would be needed. Sheppard LRT and the Finch East LRT is about 1.4 B, while Sheppard Subway to STC would be at least 2 B.

I'd cancel the Waterfront West LRT and Don Mills LRT for DRL from Eglinton to Union.

But neither Waterfront West LRT nor Don Mills LRT are funded at present.

I agree that DRL should be funded before them.

The Waterfront West LRT would probably be obsolete with a westward DRL extension, and Don Mills is the logical extension for the DRL northwards. Both these extensions would probably be funded in the future after Phase I is built.

Agreed. Waterfront West LRT could be just a 1 or 1.5 km tunnel from Roncesvalles to a DRL West station. West of Roncesvalles, a streetcar ROW exists already on Queensway.

I'd replace the Eglinton LRT with a subway from Don Mills to Keele, again to be extended with future funding.

I don't think this is a good idea - we would be getting more of Transfer City that way.

If you get Sheppard subway extended, that and Bloor would provide enough E-W capacity for long time; in addition, we might get Midtown GO service.

If I'm not mistaken, those cuts/new projects should pretty much even themselves out. I figure that Finch West is the only LRT that really makes sense anymore, and I'm sticking with that story

Unfortunately, the do not fully even out. However you slice it, more investment is needed to create a comprehensive network, even as Phase I.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

But if they are promised a new line and then it is taken away entirely, they won't be content.

Besides, there exists some territorial jealousy, "under-served suburbs" versus "subway-rich downtown". This was the reason to hold off the DRL for decades, long before any light-rail plans.

Aside from 6 people on the internet and the same 6 people that show up to all the public meetings, only some politicians think along the lines of each arbitrary region getting its arbitrary 'share' of transit, and this belief devastates proper transit planning. The DRL wasn't built because the city decided it didn't want much more development downtown...much of it happened, anyway, and now we're paying the price. (edit - and funding got cut off by the 90s, of course)

90% of the city does not know what's going on and 90% of the rest don't care. Seriously, there's literally about 80 people in the entire city that might change their municipal vote based on a cancelled transit project...it does not matter in the slightest how much fluster the local councillor feigns. Public opinion does not factor into what should be done, just as it wasn't factored into what's being done right now.

 

[Second_in_pie]

ops I meant Waterfront East. There's street cars running a long Waterfront West. I guess they're trying to upgrade the street car to LRT so the system gets upgraded. There's a lot of plans going on for waterfront west. Maybe having LRT is one of their plans to improve the area.

Actually, the Waterfront West LRT is simply to connect the end of the 509 with the Long Branch line. If I'm not mistaken, plans are for there to be no stops along the 2 1/2 kilometer portion that will be built.

If a DRL choses a route that would take it to King and Queen then up Roncesvales, an additional route connecting the Ex with Long Branch would be useless. Even if it is to follow a more eastern route, all it would take is a small section of tunnel or ROW for the Waterfront West LRT plan to be useless.

 

[Rainforest]

ops I meant Waterfront East. There's street cars running a long Waterfront West. I guess they're trying to upgrade the street car to LRT so the system gets upgraded. There's a lot of plans going on for waterfront west. Maybe having LRT is one of their plans to improve the area.

Waterfront East is a good plan, and probably will not cost that much compared with Transit City or subway projects.

The problem with Waterfront West as it stands now, is that they are trying to solve two issues with the same line: better service to the areas near downtown (waterfront, Exhibition, Ontario Place, Liberty Village), and fast LRT service between downtown and southern Etobicoke. It seems that those two goals do not combine well.

If DRL West is built, it would create many new possibilities. For example, DRL could serve Liberty Village directly; southern Etobicoke LRT could be connected to DRL West via Queensway ROW and perhaps a short tunnel under a section of Queen; and the existing Queens Quay / Exhibition streetcars could be extended to Ontario Place.

 

[Rainforest]

Where I live is irrelevant. We don't build transit lines to serve each and every ward. Oh wait, yes we do. That's exactly what the TTC does these days.

Yes we do. And I am not saying that it is good that we do it ...

 

[Second_in_pie]

Good point, but some more money would be needed. Sheppard LRT and the Finch East LRT is about 1.4 B, while Sheppard Subway to STC would be at least 2 B.

If they don't go apeshit on station design, the subway shouldn't be over $1.5 billion from Don Mills to STC. The SE LRT is already at $1 billion, and costs will quite possibly climb even higher as construction continues. Little more funding would be required for the eastern extension than is being provided now. And in the end, travel times from Morningside to Yonge might actually be better than with LRT.

But neither Waterfront West LRT nor Don Mills LRT are funded at present.

I agree that DRL should be funded before them.

The point is that instead of having funding for the Waterfront West and Don Mills LRT, get funding for the DRL.

If you get Sheppard subway extended, that and Bloor would provide enough E-W capacity for long time; in addition, we might get Midtown GO service.

Eglinton serves a totally different market. If the City and TTC want to get more people out of their cars, something will need to happen on Eglinton, as Bloor is at capacity already and Sheppard is really too far to have much of an impact on Eglinton.

Eglinton would provide an important link for the west end, and will provide easy service to the Airport. Neither of these could be accomplished with LRT as planned. Building subway from Keele to Don Mills would be a good start, and expansion of the line would shortly follow.

 

[Rainforest]

If they don't go apeshit on station design, the subway shouldn't be over $1.5 billion from Don Mills to STC. The SE LRT is already at $1 billion, and costs will quite possibly climb even higher as construction continues. Little more funding would be required for the eastern extension than is being provided now.

Don Mills to STC is 8 km. Expecting a subway for 1.5 B (so, less than 200 m / km) is way too optimistic, based on the TYSSE projected costs (more than 300 m / km). Even if they scale the cost down somewhat, it would be at least 2 B.

I would consider a subway from Don Mills to Kennedy / Sheppard at Phase I, that might fit into 1.5 B (with a possible subway extension to STC in future, and a possible SE LRT east of Kennedy in future).

And in the end, travel times from Morningside to Yonge might actually be better than with LRT.

Agreed. The section west of Kennedy would be faster as a subway, while east of Kennedy the difference between LRT and bus is probably small.

Eglinton serves a totally different market. If the City and TTC want to get more people out of their cars, something will need to happen on Eglinton, as Bloor is at capacity already and Sheppard is really too far to have much of an impact on Eglinton.

Eglinton would provide an important link for the west end, and will provide easy service to the Airport. Neither of these could be accomplished with LRT as planned. Building subway from Keele to Don Mills would be a good start, and expansion of the line would shortly follow.

Bloor is not at capacity, except the central sections around Yonge and Spadina lines. If DRL is built, it will skim many riders off those central sections, and thus release capacity for more E-W trips.

Eglinton as LRT will provide a decent service as a feeder to Yonge and Spadina subways (and perhaps DRL), and as a crosstown route for medium-length trips. For really long-haul trips, indeed the LRT implementation would be weak and a subway would work better; but choices and compromises always have to be made.

My concern with your proposal, subway from Keele to Don Mills as a start, would be too many incomplete projects at hand.

 

[MisterF]

Assuming that it either one or the other - yes, DRL would probably be a better investment.

But, do you currently live in the north-west or north-east of 416? If not, than your opinion may not be representative. Not everybody travels downtown, and some people will feel jealous if the subway-rich downtown gets yet another line while their area gets nothing.

Downtown is not subway-rich, it's in subway poverty. Most cities Toronto's size have 5-10 subway lines converging downtown, sometimes more. Even Rome has a third subway line under construction in its centre, and a fourth planned. The hurt feelings of a few people in Rexdale or Malvern is no excuse to stop subway construction downtown, where it's badly needed.

Not everybody travels downtown, but most transit riders do.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Don Mills to STC is 8 km. Expecting a subway for 1.5 B (so, less than 200 m / km) is way too optimistic, based on the TYSSE projected costs (more than 300 m / km). Even if they scale the cost down somewhat, it would be at least 2 B.

That's actually a pessimistic estimate, since it assumes years of delays and inflation.

The Spadina extension includes $54M/km of contingency, which just might be "somewhat" of a good place to begin scaling down costs...right off the bat we'd be talking about $247M/km instead of a shade over $300M - that's under $2B already. It also includes $10M/km of Wilson yard alterations. This is before even one tile or shovelful of dirt is changed let alone the vast savings in economies of scale that could result should the TTC desire to achieve them instead of reinventing the wheel over and over. If the STC bus terminal can be kept in some fashion, that'd lower the cost by millions more. The line would not need to be fully underground east of Kennedy.

 

[Rainforest]

Downtown is not subway-rich, it's in subway poverty. Most cities Toronto's size have 5-10 subway lines converging downtown, sometimes more. Even Rome has a third subway line under construction in its centre, and a fourth planned. The hurt feelings of a few people in Rexdale or Malvern is no excuse to stop subway construction downtown, where it's badly needed.

Not everybody travels downtown, but most transit riders do.

You are correct from the rational standpoint, but this is not how the system works. I bet that if the already funded Finch West LRT, or SRT to Malvern extension, were canceled to make fiscal room for DRL, there would be quite a bit of uproar.

Same will happen if SE LRT is canceled and nothing is done in lieu of it for Sheppard E and / or Scarborough (although if SE LRT is replaced with a partial subway extension, that will likely be accepted).

 

[scarberiankhatru]

You are correct from the rational standpoint, but this is not how the system works. I bet that if the already funded Finch West LRT, or SRT to Malvern extension, were canceled to make fiscal room for DRL, there would be quite a bit of uproar.

Same will happen if SE LRT is canceled and nothing is done in lieu of it for Sheppard E and / or Scarborough (although if SE LRT is replaced with a partial subway extension, that will likely be accepted).

If one project was cancelled, the funds would not be moved over to another, such as the DRL. That's not how it works.

There would be no uproar in the suburbs.

 

[Rainforest]

That's actually a pessimistic estimate, since it assumes years of delays and inflation.

The Spadina extension includes $54M/km of contingency, which just might be "somewhat" of a good place to begin scaling down costs...right off the bat we'd be talking about $247M/km instead of a shade over $300M - that's under $2B already. It also includes $10M/km of Wilson yard alterations. This is before even one tile or shovelful of dirt is changed let alone the vast savings in economies of scale that could result should the TTC desire to achieve them instead of reinventing the wheel over and over. If the STC bus terminal can be kept in some fashion, that'd lower the cost by millions more. The line would not need to be fully underground east of Kennedy.

We have the TTC that we have. It pursues inefficiencies while building TYSSE, it will keep doing that while building the Sheppard subway extension, it will keep doing that while building LRT lines.

I don't know why they are tunneling from Downsview all the way to Steeles, even though some empty land is available for at-surface operations.

 

[Second_in_pie]

My concern with your proposal, subway from Keele to Don Mills as a start, would be too many incomplete projects at hand.

I understand and respect that concern. For building subway like that to actually work, both the TTC and the Province would have to be much more committed to the plan than they have been in the past.