Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

flonicky said:
I'm getting tired of all these sanctimonious "noble purpose" comments, as though we're only supposed to look at these issues through a single lens. I wish there was a barf emoji.
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It's also disingenuous to suggest that just because a person or company is doing something for the right reason, they are exempt from criticism.

One can both be pro building transit, and also accept that Metrolinx couldn't be trusted to build a lemonade stand. These stances are not incompatible. This region deserves a competent transit building authority free of political interference that doesn't behave like they own the province. And accepting Metrolinx barging into my proverbial living room and shacking up with my proverbial wife because apparently, they're the only ones with the arcane knowledge required to build transit... well, I don't find that to be an acceptable, convincing, or natural argument.
 
T3G said:
It's also disingenuous to suggest that just because a person or company is doing something for the right reason, they are exempt from criticism.

One can both be pro building transit, and also accept that Metrolinx couldn't be trusted to build a lemonade stand. These stances are not incompatible. This region deserves a competent transit building authority free of political interference that doesn't behave like they own the province. And accepting Metrolinx barging into my proverbial living room and shacking up with my proverbial wife because apparently, they're the only ones with the arcane knowledge required to build transit... well, I don't find that to be an acceptable, convincing, or natural argument.
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Nobody is giving anyone immunity from criticism, our issue is that we don't see this particular piece of criticism as being in any way warranted, and that this whole affair is rather overblown.
 
Fine, but "this criticism isn't warranted" and "transit trumps all other concerns" isn't discussion, it's an attempt to shut down discussion. It's kneejerk.
 
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flonicky said:
Fine, but "this criticism isn't warranted" and "transit trumps all other concerns" isn't discussion, it's an attempt to shut down discussion. It's kneejerk.
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Well, it definitely isn't "discussion" if all you're going to do is snipe at me for making a compelling, rational argument that is grounded in the belief that city-building for all is more important than the momentary enjoyment of a few.

(Didn't Spock have a famous line about this?)

Like I said, I'm sympathetic to people who feel like they've lost something that was special to them. Concerns about wildlife are always worth listening to. And, of course we're all suspicious or cynical about the execution of any major Metrolinx project for a variety of reasons.

At the same time, for people like me who've been in the Relief Line / Ontario Line discussion space for a decade, and for everyone who has fought their way through Bloor/Yonge crush crowds for years, and for Thorncliffe residents who've long deserved better transit..... it's good to finally see tangible progress. The shovels are in the ground, as the saying goes.

And it's not like you're Arthur Dent, waking up to find out they're about to have their house destroyed to make way for a superhighway. It's just trees.
 
flonicky said:
Fine, but "this criticism isn't warranted" and "transit trumps all other concerns" isn't discussion, it's an attempt to shut down discussion. It's kneejerk.
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allengeorge said:
This attitude is equally dismissive and unproductive. It also demonstrates a lack of understanding and appreciation for the environment.
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The big problem is its hard to have a "discussion" on something where any arguments are entirely based off subjective/emotional states. If you feel like Metrolinx is chopping down too many trees to get a project built whether its due to a very ecological outlook on development, or they're chopping trees in one of your favorite biking trails, then you're unlikely to be swayed by any logical reasoning. Like what is there to discuss? Is Metrolinx cutting more trees than needed to build a railway ROW? That doesn't appear to be the case. Is Metrolinx at fault for not consulting the locals in regards to possible alignments that could've saved trees? Well no because the chosen alignment is being built specifically because locals wanted the line to be away from Overlea - the only place where it could've been built whilst minimizing tree clearings. Is cutting the trees further accelerating our progress towards a climate disaster? Well A) The amount of trees being cut is unlikely to contribute much to anything, and B) Any damage that will be done is almost certainly going to be outweighed by the positives of being able to move a lot more people in a far more efficient manner that doesn't involve adding more polluting car lanes.

This is just a massive discussion that is based on personal preference and opinions without any basis in a logical foundation. If you dislike the trees being cut, then I don't think I can say anything that can change your mind. Likewise I don't think you can tell me anything that will make me respond with anything other than "Oh well, too bad".
 
warrens said:
The 2022 Ontario corridor dechero did thousands of times more damage to trees than what was cut down in Seaton for the Ontario Line.

The scale of that devastation is beyond anything most Toronto urbanists can wrap their heads around -- most of it passed north of the city. If you drive to Ottawa along highway 7, past Peterborough, you will see several spots where it's clear that it will take decades for the trees to grow back, each spot being massively larger than the entirety of Seaton.
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You learn something new everyday - "A derecho is a widespread, long-lived, straight-line wind storm that is associated with a fast-moving group of severe thunderstorms known as a mesoscale convective system."

Thanks!
 
On a positive note - the nearly completed Sydney Metro through the CBD looks astonishingly good, and hopefully can provide inspiration on what the Ontario line might look like.


High density TOD atop all of the stations, public art, high quality station design, driverless metro with platform screen doors - I recommend Transport Vlog or Building Beautifully if you want to see more about this project. Too bad it's a long way to travel for opening day!
 
ARG1 said:
The big problem is its hard to have a "discussion" on something where any arguments are entirely based off subjective/emotional states. If you feel like Metrolinx is chopping down too many trees to get a project built whether its due to a very ecological outlook on development, or they're chopping trees in one of your favorite biking trails, then you're unlikely to be swayed by any logical reasoning. Like what is there to discuss? Is Metrolinx cutting more trees than needed to build a railway ROW? That doesn't appear to be the case. Is Metrolinx at fault for not consulting the locals in regards to possible alignments that could've saved trees? Well no because the chosen alignment is being built specifically because locals wanted the line to be away from Overlea - the only place where it could've been built whilst minimizing tree clearings. Is cutting the trees further accelerating our progress towards a climate disaster? Well A) The amount of trees being cut is unlikely to contribute much to anything, and B) Any damage that will be done is almost certainly going to be outweighed by the positives of being able to move a lot more people in a far more efficient manner that doesn't involve adding more polluting car lanes.

This is just a massive discussion that is based on personal preference and opinions without any basis in a logical foundation. If you dislike the trees being cut, then I don't think I can say anything that can change your mind. Likewise I don't think you can tell me anything that will make me respond with anything other than "Oh well, too bad".
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As far as I can see I'm the only one who mentioned bike trails but I did not criticized the project nor say anything about the clear cutting being excessive. I said "I doff my hat" as in I wanted to pay my respects - that's it. Please leave me out if this!
 
allengeorge said:
This attitude is equally dismissive and unproductive. It also demonstrates a lack of understanding and appreciation for the environment.
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Listen, pal, I had to hire an arborist last year to remove two trees that fell on my property after the windstorm in February. One of them narrowly missed hitting my house. The other was an old birch tree that was already on its way out, but my neighbour and I were sad to see it go. It was one of the last birches in the area.

The prior owners went through their share of it, too.... they had a giant tree in the front yard with a 50 foot wide canopy. If you saw it on Google Maps's historical Street View, your eyes would pop out of your head. So what happened? IT GOT STRUCK BY LIGHTNING. The whole tree had to be removed.

This stuff sucks, trees are great, but at the same time, being mopey or angry about when they're gone is wasted emotion. It doesn't get you anything. You gotta keep looking forward and focus on the positives.
 
ARG1 said:
Well A) The amount of trees being cut is unlikely to contribute much to anything, and B) Any damage that will be done is almost certainly going to be outweighed by the positives of being able to move a lot more people in a far more efficient manner that doesn't involve adding more polluting car lanes.
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... and C) Metrolinx plants 1-50 trees for every 1 it cuts down. It works out to a net positive for carbon capture.
 
turini2 said:
On a positive note - the nearly completed Sydney Metro through the CBD looks astonishingly good, and hopefully can provide inspiration on what the Ontario line might look like.


High density TOD atop all of the stations, public art, high quality station design, driverless metro with platform screen doors - I recommend Transport Vlog or Building Beautifully if you want to see more about this project. Too bad it's a long way to travel for opening day!
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I lived in Sydney for several years. It's much wealthier than Toronto, and they don't cheap out on projects the way we do (*cough* Line 5 *cough*). They don't have a municipal government in the sense that we North Americans would expect, which has its pros and cons, of course. One such pro is that the city doesn't need to pay for its projects, since almost all funding comes from the state, which in turn gets most of its funding from the federal government (directly) and GST, theough a transfer scheme. Australia does not allow state-level taxes of any kind, although they do have a "stamp duty" on the purchase of a home or land. There is unsurprisingly a lot less focus there on how to come up with the funding for large infrastructure projects.

All that (rambling) to say, I don't think anything we have seen suggests that the Ontario Line will be as nice-looking or well-built as Sydney Metro. But it will still be nice nevertheless, there are some modest efforts to make TOD happen, and it will certainly be an improvement over what we have now.
 
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