Toronto Crosstown LRT: Mount Dennis Station and EMSF | ?m | 3s | Metrolinx | IBI Group

NIMBYism over an backup gas turbine generator

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...lant-has-mount-dennis-residents-fired-up.html

You can't even build an emergency generator these days. In the meantime, downtown is host to co-generation plants and have a 500MW gas turbine generator next door in Portlands.

AoD
I am sure I read here somewhere that the gas plant was not for what metrolinx says but that crosslinx wanted it built so it would save money. Not sure if it was because the excess power they would use and not pay for it or be able to profit by selling excess back. Which means Metrolinx lied in their meeting with the Mount Dennis community. I am not part of that community but did show up at the first community meeting for it. The residents were informed and were questioning Metrolinx about why not go for battery and so forth and of course Metrolinx came up with all sorts of reasoning why battery not good. It may not be a well off community but that Mount Dennis Associations appears to be quire strong and gets more things accomplished than the councillor or MPP for the area. I talked to one resident and the association contacted Laura Albanese who did not come out to say she supported them in being opposed to the gas plant. But when Del Luca announced the cancellation of the gas plant Albanese was front and centre and in the next election will be stating she helped cancel the gas plant. Unreal. There are councillors and MPP's that really do not have the interests of their wards at heart to have at least annual meetings to ask what they want to see in their community. An example is my councillor Di Giorgio. When Humber Hospital Keele site closed, he never had a meeting to ask what we wanted to see there. For me I envisioned a sort of mini Bricks works. But no they are putting back to back townhouses and low rise condos. So original
 
NIMBYism over an backup gas turbine generator

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tr...lant-has-mount-dennis-residents-fired-up.html

You can't even build an emergency generator these days. In the meantime, downtown is host to co-generation plants and have a 500MW gas turbine generator next door in Portlands.

AoD

I know it's easy to jump on the NIMBY-blaming bandwagon here, but the biggest problems with this gas plant:
  • It was 18MW. Most on-site back-up generators are 1/10th that size at the most.
  • The door was open to using it for peak-shaving, which is above and beyond emergency generation.
  • It was unassessed in the EA. There was no analysis on location, stack height etc. to mitigate exposure, and no modelling done to ensure people were not exposed to unacceptable levels of emissions.
Could you elaborate on where these downtown co-generation plants are? There are none to my knowledge, and the one planned at Redpath Sugar was rejected by the OPA. Furthermore, the Portlands plant was installed in an area away from residential areas; 900m away from some houses in . This would have been ~100m away from houses, and ~150m away from some tall apartment buildings. Those are not comparable situations from a human health perspective.
 
I know it's easy to jump on the NIMBY-blaming bandwagon here, but the biggest problems with this gas plant:
  • It was 18MW. Most on-site back-up generators are 1/10th that size at the most.
  • The door was open to using it for peak-shaving, which is above and beyond emergency generation.
  • It was unassessed in the EA. There was no analysis on location, stack height etc. to mitigate exposure, and no modelling done to ensure people were not exposed to unacceptable levels of emissions.
Could you elaborate on where these downtown co-generation plants are? There are none to my knowledge, and the one planned at Redpath Sugar was rejected by the OPA. Furthermore, the Portlands plant was installed in an area away from residential areas; 900m away from some houses in . This would have been ~100m away from houses, and ~150m away from some tall apartment buildings. Those are not comparable situations from a human health perspective.

Here is one example:

http://www.fs.utoronto.ca/wp-conten...niversity_of_toronto_districtenergysystem.pdf

6 MW + Steam, with no meaningful buffer space to non-industrial uses; also we have a multitude of steam plants in the core in the multi-100 MWTh range, again with the same context. Now you have a point regarding the EA process, but if we are really interested in being "green", shouldn't we be having a conversation about why we aren't having more of these co-gen plants and how the scope of this particular project should be increased to proved heating for this facility and other nearby uses as a district energy system as well?

AoD
 
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I am sure I read here somewhere that the gas plant was not for what metrolinx says but that crosslinx wanted it built so it would save money. Not sure if it was because the excess power they would use and not pay for it or be able to profit by selling excess back. Which means Metrolinx lied in their meeting with the Mount Dennis community. I am not part of that community but did show up at the first community meeting for it. The residents were informed and were questioning Metrolinx about why not go for battery and so forth and of course Metrolinx came up with all sorts of reasoning why battery not good. It may not be a well off community but that Mount Dennis Associations appears to be quire strong and gets more things accomplished than the councillor or MPP for the area. I talked to one resident and the association contacted Laura Albanese who did not come out to say she supported them in being opposed to the gas plant. But when Del Luca announced the cancellation of the gas plant Albanese was front and centre and in the next election will be stating she helped cancel the gas plant. Unreal. There are councillors and MPP's that really do not have the interests of their wards at heart to have at least annual meetings to ask what they want to see in their community. An example is my councillor Di Giorgio. When Humber Hospital Keele site closed, he never had a meeting to ask what we wanted to see there. For me I envisioned a sort of mini Bricks works. But no they are putting back to back townhouses and low rise condos. So original

to play devil's advocate, often times, an association will take a stand and although a group of people support one thing, it does not automatically mean the entire community supports that organization's stance.
 
I'm not sure what comparisons to other generators brings (and inferences of why it was sized as it was) unless the actual load required to keep Crosstown operational is known. Certainly I would have poohpoohed a battery vs a generator until a few months ago when Elon Musk's outfit put a grid-scale battery into California. Will be an interesting exercise to keep the temperature in that facility reasonably constant to reduce stress on the battery stack.
 
to play devil's advocate, often times, an association will take a stand and although a group of people support one thing, it does not automatically mean the entire community supports that organization's stance.
I am pretty certain most people in that community did not want gas plants especially as they would be situated so close. And other communities have councillors that ask the residents what they what they want to see or not see in their area.
 
I know it's easy to jump on the NIMBY-blaming bandwagon here, but the biggest problems with this gas plant:
  • It was 18MW. Most on-site back-up generators are 1/10th that size at the most.
  • The door was open to using it for peak-shaving, which is above and beyond emergency generation.
  • It was unassessed in the EA. There was no analysis on location, stack height etc. to mitigate exposure, and no modelling done to ensure people were not exposed to unacceptable levels of emissions.
Could you elaborate on where these downtown co-generation plants are? There are none to my knowledge, and the one planned at Redpath Sugar was rejected by the OPA. Furthermore, the Portlands plant was installed in an area away from residential areas; 900m away from some houses in . This would have been ~100m away from houses, and ~150m away from some tall apartment buildings. Those are not comparable situations from a human health perspective.

Granted I haven't followed this issue closely, but not using gas generation and instead relying on batteries seems pretty shortsighted. Then again if it wasn't assessed in the EA the nimby issue was bound to arise. Wonder if a better compromise would be to have several gas generating stations along the line to dilute emissions over a larger area, rather than one large 18MW station.
 
Granted I haven't followed this issue closely, but not using gas generation and instead relying on batteries seems pretty shortsighted. Then again if it wasn't assessed in the EA the nimby issue was bound to arise. Wonder if a better compromise would be to have several gas generating stations along the line to dilute emissions over a larger area, rather than one large 18MW station.

We also gotta remember that this is over and above what you would get on the rest of the TTC subway system. If there was a power outage, the Crosstown would run fine as intersecting Line 1 came to a standstill.

I don't think it's necessary at all, and a gas plant, IMO, is overkill. Batteries are a nice perk.
 
Couldn't they put solar panels and wind turbines in or around or on the MSF?

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Granted I haven't followed this issue closely, but not using gas generation and instead relying on batteries seems pretty shortsighted. Then again if it wasn't assessed in the EA the nimby issue was bound to arise. Wonder if a better compromise would be to have several gas generating stations along the line to dilute emissions over a larger area, rather than one large 18MW station.

We have to remember, the purpose of this plant is to provide generation in the event of a *total* GTA blackout. The Crosstown's electrical system is already designed with redundant feed points, so if the lights go off in one part of the city they just feed from the other side of town.

That total blackout scenario is a pretty rare event. Clearly Crosstown has to have a standby power so it can bring trains to the stations and evacuate passengers. Perhaps it even makes sense to operate long enough to get people to their intended destination point, so they are not stranded across town in a blackout. But any continued operation beyond that makes no sense. In a total blackout (similar to 2003, or the ice storm) the civic response will be to tell people to stay home or shelter in place. Nobody will want to take the LRT someplace.

ML wanted the large plant.....because a) they had this vision that if there were a catastrophic power failure, Crosstown should keep running day or night for all time thereafter and b) because it was large and shiny. It made no sense. Cogen for the area was only added because the plant was obviously a white elephant for the true purpose, and some other use had to be invented to justify its huge cost.

Some posters have raised the issue of whether we should be encouraging small local generation instead of relying on the grid. That's a fair debate, but ML should be focussing on transit and letting some other group advance that cause. Personally, adding gas emissions to an urban residential neighbourhood makes less sense than relying on emission free hydro or nuclear or wind or solar power, but others may feel otherwise. Once charged, a battery system could be trickle-charged by solar panels and remain ready for an emergency.

We don't exactly need more gas generation capacity in this province, for this decade anyways.

- Paul
 
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Couldn't they put solar panels and wind turbines in or around or on the MSF?

Not sure about wind turbines, they may be noisy and will look weird in the urban surroundings.

Solar panels, definitely yes. They are getting cheaper, and have no negative effects at all.
 
Besides, in a blackout, if the purpose of the gas plant was to provide power to allow trains to run, was it also going to be providing lights around the whole area along the crosstown to allow drivers to see where they are going?
 
We also gotta remember that this is over and above what you would get on the rest of the TTC subway system. If there was a power outage, the Crosstown would run fine as intersecting Line 1 came to a standstill.

I don't think it's necessary at all, and a gas plant, IMO, is overkill. Batteries are a nice perk.

I guess I don't have the evidence to back this, but I just feel batteries are a bad move. I think diesel or gas is more reliable, less costly, and nowadays are fairly clean. Like what kind of technology are these batteries? Is it tried/tested to run such high power from battery storage? Just last week I destroyed a LiPo for my RC heli in a matter of hours, could the same on Eg (but on a much larger scale)?

We have to remember, the purpose of this plant is to provide generation in the event of a *total* GTA blackout. The Crosstown's electrical system is already designed with redundant feed points, so if the lights go off in one part of the city they just feed from the other side of town.

That total blackout scenario is a pretty rare event. Clearly Crosstown has to have a standby power so it can bring trains to the stations and evacuate passengers. Perhaps it even makes sense to operate long enough to get people to their intended destination point, so they are not stranded across town in a blackout. But any continued operation beyond that makes no sense. In a total blackout (similar to 2003, or the ice storm) the civic response will be to tell people to stay home or shelter in place. Nobody will want to take the LRT someplace.

ML wanted the large plant.....because a) they had this vision that if there were a catastrophic power failure, Crosstown should keep running day or night for all time thereafter and b) because it was large and shiny. It made no sense. Cogen for the area was only added because the plant was obviously a white elephant for the true purpose, and some other use had to be invented to justify its huge cost.

Some posters have raised the issue of whether we should be encouraging small local generation instead of relying on the grid. That's a fair debate, but ML should be focussing on transit and letting some other group advance that cause. Personally, adding gas emissions to an urban residential neighbourhood makes less sense than relying on emission free hydro or nuclear or wind or solar power, but others may feel otherwise. Once charged, a battery system could be trickle-charged by solar panels and remain ready for an emergency.

We don't exactly need more gas generation capacity in this province, for this decade anyways.

- Paul

It does seem kinda quirky that Crosstown will be running during a massive blackout while everything else will be at a standstill. Will this be running the traffic lights along the surface portion too? It's one thing to be able to get trains back to stations, but to actually run continuously is a bold move. Will Mlinx be doing the same for other transit projects, like GO electrification? Perhaps the TTC should consider doing the same for the subway, or rather core sections of Line 1 and 2.

And yeah I'm a big fan of localized co-generation. If the City is smart, areas like Villiers Island could very well be a model of sustainable city-building (e.g district heating/cooling/hydro/waste etc). Not sure about relying on wind or solar, but nat gas is still pretty clean and efficient.
 
ML wanted the large plant.....because a) they had this vision that if there were a catastrophic power failure, Crosstown should keep running day or night for all time thereafter and b) because it was large and shiny. It made no sense. Cogen for the area was only added because the plant was obviously a white elephant for the true purpose, and some other use had to be invented to justify its huge cost.

- Paul

In their defense, it wasn't Metrolinx that suggested, nor wanted the plant - although they certainly didn't see anything wrong with it.

The plant wasn't just for a catastrophic power outage event, either.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 

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