Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[innsertnamehere]

be real burloak, nobody was suggesting an elevated eglinton and the subway was not built to get rid of the transfer.



How could they have built it with no extra cost if it was underground? stations cost $$, especially underground ones.

distance is also 2.2km, and Metrolinx suggested moving Laird to Brentcliffe, which would have made it 1.8km.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

be real burloak, nobody was suggesting an elevated eglinton and the subway was not built to get rid of the transfer.



How could they have built it with no extra cost if it was underground? stations cost $$, especially underground ones.

distance is also 2.2km, and Metrolinx suggested moving Laird to Brentcliffe, which would have made it 1.8km.

Actually Metrolinx wanted to elevate the line after Victoria Park in Scarborough

Ford's very first plan was to connect the SRT and the Eglinton Line to eliminate the transfer. 400m like BurlOak said. Now we are paying 3.7 billion for 3 stop to McCowan and Sheppard.

As an aside, the line should be extended to Kingston road at least.

 

[car4041]

Actually Metrolinx wanted to elevate the line after Victoria Park in Scarborough

Do you have a source for that?

Ford's very first plan was to connect the SRT and the Eglinton Line to eliminate the transfer.

Actually, his election platform was to funnel all the $$ to Sheppard and just have express buses on Eglinton. He only agreed to anything at all for Eglinton through the begging of the province/Metrolinx.

 

[BurlOak]

be real burloak, nobody was suggesting an elevated eglinton and the subway was not built to get rid of the transfer.

I am not sure exactly what "elevated eglinton and the subway" means, but I was referring to elevated Eglinton connected to the SRT. If it would have been proposed 6 to 18 months ago, It would have been widely accepted as superior to the in-median LRT. Once the Province re-opened the "subway" door, they doomed any more reasonable cost solutions.

How could they have built it with no extra cost if it was underground? stations cost $$, especially underground ones.

No extra cost means that they could build a Don River West bridge, a Leslie at-grade Station, tunnels through CPR embankment and reconfiguration of the Celestial interchange with the savings from reduced traffic control costs with south side construction and not having the crossover and train storage (pocket track) build underground and in the median.

distance is also 2.2km, and Metrolinx suggested moving Laird to Brentcliffe, which would have made it 1.8km.

You are correct - it is 2.2km. But if the Laird Station is moved, then spacing from Bayview to Brentcliffe is getting too long.

Actually Metrolinx wanted to elevate the line after Victoria Park in Scarborough

I have heard this from several sources (including Steve Munro), but have never found a link that actually confirms it.

Ford's very first plan was to connect the SRT and the Eglinton Line to eliminate the transfer. 400m like BurlOak said. Now we are paying 3.7 billion for 3 stop to McCowan and Sheppard.

Ford actually wanted to extend the B-D subway to STC, but Metrolinx and the Province force the SRT connected to underground Eglinton since the LRT trains were already ordered - that was back in early 2011. It took two and a half years, but the Province is now back to the original Ford (and I think Smitherman too) proposal. (It almost seems that the Province should accept responsibility for the delay costs). For a year I thought they were trying to find a way to make the connected SRT-Eglinton work, but I think everyone was just sitting on their hands waiting for the Ford influence to lessen so they could revert back to the Transit City plan. If after this underground plan died - it would have been very popular to bring in the elevated solution to still provide rapid transit, but at a much reduced cost.

Your cost statement may be correct, but it is a bit misleading. The connected SRT-Eglinton would have been $400M more than the Transit City LRT (or about $2.4B). The subway extension is $1.5B to $1.7B more that the Transit City LRT (or about $3.5B to $3.7B).

As an aside, the line should be extended to Kingston road at least.

I do not know if you mean the Eglinton line, or the B-D Subway.

I always thought that the SRT and the Eglinton line were both on the West side of the rail corridor and should be connected. They also both use LRT vehicles which can handle curves better. The (tail tracks of) B-D subway already goes under the railway and it should have been the one extended (in a straight line) to Kingston road. The subway requires gentle curves and going up to Sheppard means that there can be no station at Brimley/Eglinton or at STC proper.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Do you have a source for that?

Crosstown community meeting. They felt it was the betting option then at grade. I talked to them after

Actually, his election platform was to funnel all the $$ to Sheppard and just have express buses on Eglinton. He only agreed to anything at all for Eglinton through the begging of the province/Metrolinx.

I saw the graphic after the inital meeting that had the Eglinton line joining up at Kennedy and going northeast. Do you have a source for the express busses?

I have heard this from several sources (including Steve Munro), but have never found a link that actually confirms it.

So have I. I think this would have been the better option.

Ford actually wanted to extend the B-D subway to STC, but Metrolinx and the Province force the SRT connected to underground Eglinton since the LRT trains were already ordered - that was back in early 2011. It took two and a half years, but the Province is now back to the original Ford (and I think Smitherman too) proposal. (It almost seems that the Province should accept responsibility for the delay costs). For a year I thought they were trying to find a way to make the connected SRT-Eglinton work, but I think everyone was just sitting on their hands waiting for the Ford influence to lessen so they could revert back to the Transit City plan. If after this underground plan died - it would have been very popular to bring in the elevated solution to still provide rapid transit, but at a much reduced cost.

Your cost statement may be correct, but it is a bit misleading. The connected SRT-Eglinton would have been $400M more than the Transit City LRT (or about $2.4B). The subway extension is $1.5B to $1.7B more that the Transit City LRT (or about $3.5B to $3.7B).

Thanks for the costs. I think so too, but the delay was getting to be too much on the entire thing. They had to build something, plus political pressure from Scarborough.

I do not know if you mean the Eglinton line, or the B-D Subway.

I always thought that the SRT and the Eglinton line were both on the West side of the rail corridor and should be connected. They also both use LRT vehicles which can handle curves better. The (tail tracks of) B-D subway already goes under the railway and it should have been the one extended (in a straight line) to Kingston road. The subway requires gentle curves and going up to Sheppard means that there can be no station at Brimley/Eglinton or at STC proper.

I was talking the Eglinton Line, but did not know that about the Subway. And no station at STC.


I don't think the Scarborough Subway battle is over.

 

[car4041]

I saw the graphic after the inital meeting that had the Eglinton line joining up at Kennedy and going northeast. Do you have a source for the express busses?

Steve Munro summarized Ford's transit platform here. It consisted of Sheppard subway from Downsview to STC and B-D extension to STC. Ford didn't want to build anything on Eglinton at all.

It was only after he got elected that he was convinced to embrace an all-underground Eglinton LRT.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Steve Munro summarized Ford's transit platform here. It consisted of Sheppard subway from Downsview to STC and B-D extension to STC. Ford didn't want to build anything on Eglinton at all.

It was only after he got elected that he was convinced to embrace an all-underground Eglinton LRT.

Thanks for that, I didn't know.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I meant there was never any real mention of the elevated option other than on transit enthusiast websites like this, meaning there was never any real movement behind it. The subway was built because subways subways subways and not to eliminate a transfer. Also, the province is paying for the $85 million cancellation cost, as it's portion for the line is $1.485 billion.

 

[BurlOak]

I meant there was never any real mention of the elevated option other than on transit enthusiast websites like this, meaning there was never any real movement behind it. The subway was built because subways subways subways and not to eliminate a transfer. Also, the province is paying for the $85 million cancellation cost, as it's portion for the line is $1.485 billion.

The fact that the elevated line was not discussed is clearly the fault of those who knew about that option but did not raise it - I.e. Metrolinx, TTC, etc. I do not think you can expect the public, or average Councillors, to come up with full transit concepts. The key is; who covered up the info about the elevated option or the south side alignment at Leslie. These are apparantly the best solutions, but they were never explained by ML. Was it known by the Provincial government and they burried the report just to kill the idea and not allow Ford to look good. Did TTC chair know and keep quiet to harm Ford and help her own Mayorality bid. For the past 3 years almost every decision has been political and it is quite likely that there was some political (and not transit) reason why decisions were made.

As for the $85M, the Province is paying, but they are subtracting it from the amount they promised for transit.

As for the $85M, much of the delay cost is attributable to ML, the Province, the TTC Chair, City Council and Ford.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The delay cost is entirely attributable to those who decided to delay, the principal party being a) Ford, b) his supporters and c) the Liberal government caving on Ford's demands in spite of not having paid a cent into said projects. Period. Slicing and dicing what's "best" while ignoring the very simple fact that a) you have a contract and b) you decide to rip it up.

AoD

 

[innsertnamehere]

There were no contracts other than the LRT trains, which are not included in the $85 million. those costs are largely design and environmental assessment costs.

 

[reaperexpress]

When does the construction on this portal actually start. Maybe we can just pay an extra $100M or so to the Contractor and get them to switch to the south side alignment. We can just call it the Metrolinx stupidity fee that I am sure the public would be happy to pay.

Sounds reasonable to me.

When I spoke to the representative at the community office, she thought that there was still time to make the change, though she didn't seem very knowledgeable about construction. It will be nearly two years before the TBMs get to the portal, but I'm not sure how much before that they start working on it.

 

[sixrings]

Sounds reasonable to me.

When I spoke to the representative at the community office, she thought that there was still time to make the change, though she didn't seem very knowledgeable about construction. It will be nearly two years before the TBMs get to the portal, but I'm not sure how much before that they start working on it.

everytime i talk to someone from that office i come away thinking i know more then these people and its their job.... i am happy that Eglinton remained at grade in the east, MINUS THE LESLIE FIASCO, because I believe it makes it more likely to be continued out to the airport. If they would have elevated the east side there always would be concerns that the west side would need to be grade separated as well in order to keep the trains from bunching... Because the richview lands are sold and being built on it looks like a ROW is the most likely scenario in the west side...

 

[BurlOak]

The delay cost is entirely attributable to those who decided to delay, the principal party being a) Ford, b) his supporters and c) the Liberal government caving on Ford's demands in spite of not having paid a cent into said projects. Period. Slicing and dicing what's "best" while ignoring the very simple fact that a) you have a contract and b) you decide to rip it up.

AoD

So Ford and the Liberals share the blame for the delays from early 2011 to early 2012 when the Transit City was reinstated. The delay cost from early 2012 until now must surely rest with the Liberals for re-opening the subway debate and for the half of Council that changed their vote from LRT to subway.

 

[BurlOak]

everytime i talk to someone from that office i come away thinking i know more then these people and its their job.... i am happy that Eglinton remained at grade in the east, MINUS THE LESLIE FIASCO, because I believe it makes it more likely to be continued out to the airport. If they would have elevated the east side there always would be concerns that the west side would need to be grade separated as well in order to keep the trains from bunching... Because the richview lands are sold and being built on it looks like a ROW is the most likely scenario in the west side...

Beating a dead horse, but

1. When the Ford-Province compromise of an SRT connected to Eglinton LRT was on the table, nobody in Scarborough was upset. This shows that the definition of "subway" used by the populace was not "HRT" and not the "B-D Subway" - it was grade-separated transit with no forced transfer.
2. Once the underground line was dead, would people on Eglinton have accepted an elevated line. I would say yes but we will never know for sure. It is just that if the choice was in-median or underground they chose underground. That is why I proposed an elevated station at Ionview just so those residents who are closest to the elevated line would have better access to the line passing by their homes than the underground option. I also note that the fastest growing part of Scarborough (maybe all of it but definitely the part serviced by the SRT) is the STC area that is serviced by an elevated transit line. People do not have an intrinsic fear of elevated tracks.
3. (Now getting to your comment) The Scarborough Subway debate of a few months back shows that people are willing to pay more if they get a better product (whether it is better or not does not matter, it is whether they think it is better). I do not think very many people have yet given any thoughts to the Eglinton line, but once construction starts, and when the line is completed, they will realized it is not what they wanted. Spending a little more now could actually increase the chances of the Eglinton line being completed. For example, someone from Scarborough could see a grade-separated line from Malvern to Mount Dennis - with an extension to Pearson they could get to their jobs quite easily and fast. With the Scarborough portion being in the median, those people will say that the extension to Pearson does no good because they will still be driving to get to Pearson.