junctionist
Senior Member
All healthy heterosexual people are supposed to have children. It's in our nature. Having children is a human right, though people who have children are responsible for taking care of and providing for their children.
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Toronto child poverty rate at "epidemic levels"
- Thread starter King of Kensington
- Start date
NorthYorkEd
Active Member
What if I said "cars" instead of children? Or "houses"? Still dumb?
Bottom line is you should be able to afford the children you want to have, and not expect everyone else to fork out for it. Sorry if you disagree.
nfitz
Superstar
If society had to forgo all cars and houses, we'd still survive (there are apartments and caves after all).
If we were to forgo all children, then I doubt we'd last another generation!
Not comparable.You'll get into some interesting economics too, if suddenly there were no, or very few, offspring.
Most importantly, obviously it's not going to happen. To suggest that the problem should just go away is sticking one's head in the sand.
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Palma
Senior Member
Its not dumb. if you can;t afford to make mortgage payments a bank will not lend you money. i think most people think babies are free, especially when they are young because if they are breastfed at least for the first 6 mths, that is free milk. There are diapers but I think people are not aware for the first 6 mnths how many diapers per day babies go through. Then when babies start to eat at 6 mths, its not much at the beginning and then they eat way smaller portions when they start to eat what the family starts to eat at the dinner table. So ya, it seems like babies do not cost so much. But if one decides to return to work after 1 year then yes there is daycare and that is expensive. Then its all the activities they are put in, swimming, skating, skiing, soccer, ballet, etc, summer camps. Thats when the costs start to mount. if there is free daycare such as with grandparents who are able to look after them, then of course costs are lower as there will be no daycare costs. So I to think there is not much thought put into costs. They say there is never a right time to have kids and if one keeps waiting for the right time they may never have them,
kbdid
Senior Member
Tell that to people who choose not to have kids. What's a human right is the choice and despite the fact that OHIP now funds IVF, I really don't think everyone has the "right" to have a child. It's unethical to stop people from procreating similar to forcing people to have children. Not everyone should have a child (I've met many who should never have been parents, and I'm not talking about low income people, either).
Bolding mine - holy cow....anyway, there are many many immigrants and people of ethnic backgrounds (other than WASPs who historically had more privilege and access to education etc) in middle and upper middle classes. Cyclical poverty does exist, but it's not exclusive to immigrant populations. Part of the problem were the planning fiascos that led to high concentrations of low-income/social housing and similarly homogenous middle-class 'burbs - people who gained success split for better neighbourhoods. The revitalization of Regent Park is one example of an attempt to create a healthier neighbourhood by introducing mixed use/income levels and attracting business (which improves job opportunities).
How to reverse the child poverty rates (which went back up, not surprisingly, after an economic downturn and the Ford era)? Improve access to education, address the issue of food deserts, improve and actually fix crumbling TCHC housing, encourage developers to build/include low-income/affordable housing. The usual things that all require political will and money.
What gets lost in all the immigrant discussion is that there are many single mothers who slip back from middle class upon divorce. More practical training for job readiness targeting single parents would help.
All of these programs do exist, but you have to mine a number of different agencies/programs to access them. Some only accept people who live on assistance or are limited to different neighbourhoods etc.
nfitz
Superstar
Holy cow indeed. I don't know how such racist comments haven't been removed a long time ago! I thought I'd reported them when I first saw them, but they are still there.
junctionist
Senior Member
I have nothing against miscegenation, but population wise, our race is in a rut at the moment. A lot of people just keep saying they want to save money by not having kids. We've been quite successful over the past 5 centuries, but now our populations have stopped growing. Population growth is an important measure of success.
If I were black, Indian or Asian, I'd also have some concerns about my race.
If I were black, Indian or Asian, I'd also have some concerns about my race.
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wolfewood
Active Member
Wow... Values like this are ancient and utterly ridiculous, however politely you state them. Want to try joining the rest of us in the 21st century?
kbdid
Senior Member
No kidding...where's a mod to wipe this stuff? There's not adequate response.
junctionist
Senior Member
I'm not willing to pretend the situation doesn't exist for the sake of political correctness. The reason why that comment wasn't deleted is because it isn't wrong. I'm not afraid to go right up to that line of what's appropriate. It's important not to cross it into the realm of insults and ignorant generalizations.
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wolfewood
Active Member
Ok. I'll bite. You do realize race is entirely a social construct? That being "white" not even 30-40 years ago meant being Anglo-Celtic or Northern European in origin. White, black, brown, yellow etc. mean literally nothing. Races shrink and grow dependent upon the culture of a period and are never static. Seriously, you're spouting utter bullshit. You might be polite about it but that's all I can really offer in your defense.
junctionist
Senior Member
No matter how you frame the issue, most developed Western nations with white majorities don't have natural population growth anymore. It's all immigrants. We don't really see this phenomenon anywhere else in the world though most other places have fewer economic resources to support population growth.
If this sounds ancient, it's because it goes to our nature. We're supposed to have lots of kids if we can get the resources to raise that life. But it's like we've outsourced that to the 3rd world. Keep the pleasure; forgo the cost of raising kids. But someone has to have kids.
Don't forget that when you criticize poor immigrants or people in the developing world for having many children. We're supposed to have kids. We're supposed to allocate resources towards that end. It's part of being a heterosexual man or woman. The economy should always be growing, and the population should always be growing until we reach the maximum sustainable numbers in any area.
If this sounds ancient, it's because it goes to our nature. We're supposed to have lots of kids if we can get the resources to raise that life. But it's like we've outsourced that to the 3rd world. Keep the pleasure; forgo the cost of raising kids. But someone has to have kids.
Don't forget that when you criticize poor immigrants or people in the developing world for having many children. We're supposed to have kids. We're supposed to allocate resources towards that end. It's part of being a heterosexual man or woman. The economy should always be growing, and the population should always be growing until we reach the maximum sustainable numbers in any area.
kbdid
Senior Member
This, and remember, Italians, Eastern European/slavs, and before that Irish weren't even really considered fully white/socially acceptible/privileged. So, who are you lamenting the loss of Junctionist, WASPS? Other "whites"? Seriously positing that since white people were historically more likely to be middle class, they should breed because of this.....
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kbdid
Senior Member
Yes, the population should grow, and how it grows is through immigration and also intermingling of populations, not by promoting that a majority "race" ramp up it's procreation to maintain some idea that the previous majority somehow is inherently more successful etc. Most groups coming into western countries also begin to have fewer numbers of children etc. as well.
It isn't wrong to say that, especially in Toronto, people born in Canada or with strictly Canadian roots, will be a minority, but there's nothing wrong with that.
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NorthYorkEd
Active Member
Glad I didn't have kids. They would've been mixed race, and thus kept folks like junctionist up at night. Soiling my wonderful white genes and all.