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Toronto Can Support more NHL teams

TOareaFan said:
Few points in rebuttal


1.....Most (all?) of those multiple team situations date way back and do not involve a situation where the upfront cost of the team is around $600 million. Deal with that reality...a second Toronto team will have to generate revenue sufficient to warrant/justify a $600 million investment....that does not scream out "low ticket prices" to me.

2....The kind of owner that is gonna write that kind of cheque is not doing so to be a dominated second class team.

3....You have just described a market where you can see examples (and I know they exist as well) of people paying $25k a year for sports tickets they are just marginally interested in so that they have a spot in line if the tickets they really want come along.......and yet you still think the second team is about (or will lead to) lower prices?
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He described two different sports. Let's say the Panthers played in North York, and the Leafs stay downtown. Would the Panthers charge the same?
 
I have repeatedly mentioned Downsview as my secondary team spot... Its ideal because its far enough from the core... located off the 401... easy to get to by transit... close enough for 905ers to get to without going downtown... north sauga, brampton, vauhan, pickering, markham, all would have easier access to the team if they were located at downsview.... PLUS north of 401 Toronto...

I think the area Im proposing is the equivalent to new jersey in distance against new york rangers.... Obviously not based on how far away but based on density. Its just far enough not to cause Leafs to lose their downtown audience and their major corporate but close enough for the second tier advertisers and some northern toronto companies to be able to support the team by buying Boxes.... Its a gate driven league so the team needs to make sure it sells to buisnesses as well as people...

Even though its close enough the tickets will not be dollar for dollar matched... They will have to be discounted at least 15%... that makes a big difference...
 
in order to develop a fan base....Of course theres no evidence to these types of things.. I assume based on common sense that the new team would have to try there best to win over existing leaf nation which wouldnt be easy... Therefore theyd attack at price point... you seem to differ in opinon OK...

Im still picking toronto as a better location the Hamilton... Toronto can be a hub for all the cities arround it... But people from toronto will not be driving to 905 to watch games.... It just wont happen.... Especially businesses... BUT maybe you can cite the EVIDENCE of businneses that will gladly by boxes and advertise on the boards and pay naming right to the building in a smaller ontario city.
 
theterribleone said:
Let's flip that around: Why would they kill any potential fan base and make this whole idea redundant by NOT doing that?
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Because they have an upfront cost of $600 million (or more) that they have to 1) recoup and 2) make a return on. They would not be intentionally killing anything....but they would have to justify/rationalize the investment.

As for a location removed from the core to create a "different" market....the reason the ACC/Leafs/Raptors draw so much corporate support is that it is easy. We all walk out of our towers and, either, take clients or are taken by clients to the game. Even 7 o'clock mid week starts leave time for us to hit the restaurants that MLSE owns (in and outside the building) for pre-game meals/wine/beer/whatever.....any game in NY or Hamilton or Mississauga that puts an hour or more between our offices and our client sports experience is going to be less interesting to us.....not "uninteresting" but certainly less interesting.
 
If the second team is in Greater Toronto, it should be on the subway like at Downsview or Vaughan City Centre, for instance. It could also be just beyond the subway, with the stadium used a reason for a slight extension. The notion of a subway series is very enticing. Otherwise, I'd support a location near a GO station in downtown Hamilton or one of the cities around Greater Toronto but not actually in the city. Public transit accessibility is key. Who wants an stadium surrounded by ugly surface parking lots?
 
TOareaFan said:
As for a location removed from the core to create a "different" market....the reason the ACC/Leafs/Raptors draw so much corporate support is that it is easy. We all walk out of our towers and, either, take clients or are taken by clients to the game. Even 7 o'clock mid week starts leave time for us to hit the restaurants that MLSE owns (in and outside the building) for pre-game meals/wine/beer/whatever.....any game in NY or Hamilton or Mississauga that puts an hour or more between our offices and our client sports experience is going to be less interesting to us.....not "uninteresting" but certainly less interesting.
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I'm not going to debate the cost of the franchise + the stadium because I think toronto tax payers will get lured into the stadium cost. Also I'm sure the nhl will gladly take the expansion fee and not charge them anything outrageous for being in leaf land. They have to be realistic that at some point it wouldn't be profitable to any owner to start a franchise if they started 600 million in the hole. Even in toronto that's asking a lot.

However north york downsview sure isn't downtown but its a great location serviced by transit and a highway. As for those rich business ppl who love that the acc is close to there work. Well now there's a good chance it might be farther from there work but closer to their home. Forest hill yonge sheppard residents all would be closer to home. So its not the perfect location. ACC is. But its a good second choice.
 
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sixrings said:
I'm not going to debate the cost of the franchise + the stadium because I think toronto tax payers will get lured into the stadium cost. Also I'm sure the nhl will gladly take the expansion fee and not charge them anything outrageous for being in leaf land. They have to be realistic that at some point it wouldn't be profitable to any owner to start a franchise if they started 600 million in the hole. Even in toronto that's asking a lot.
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Why would taxpayers pay for any of the new teams rink? What makes the second NHL team/rink more valuable to the city than the first one was/is?

Why would the NHL owners accept a reduced expansion fee from a team just because the market they were choosing to play in belonged to someone else?

Why would the Leafs take a reduced territorial fee?

$600 million is, I believe, a low estimate of the upfront cost of this hypothetical 2nd Toronto NHL team....and that figure will drive all of the future economics of the team (including the ticket prices).

I think you missed my point about the location with respect to business use.

No one really cares if it is close to home....it is the pre game convenience of the rink in relation to places of business. A 7 pm hockey game midweek already makes pre-game entertaining a challenge.....if everybody had an hour or so to travel before sitting down at the table...it would be closer to impossible.
 
sixrings said:
I'm not going to debate the cost of the franchise + the stadium because I think toronto tax payers will get lured into the stadium cost. Also I'm sure the nhl will gladly take the expansion fee and not charge them anything outrageous for being in leaf land. They have to be realistic that at some point it wouldn't be profitable to any owner to start a franchise if they started 600 million in the hole. Even in toronto that's asking a lot.

However north york downsview sure isn't downtown but its a great location serviced by transit and a highway. As for those rich business ppl who love that the acc is close to there work. Well now there's a good chance it might be farther from there work but closer to their home. Forest hill yonge sheppard residents all would be closer to home. So its not the perfect location. ACC is. But its a good second choice.
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You realize we're talking about the same NHL that thought they could get a 250million dollar expansion fee out of an expansion team in Las Vegas, right? We're talking about the same NHL that is currently losing $40million+ per year on the Phoenix Coyotes, which means dollars from every owner need to be recouped. We're talking about the same NHL that has apparently not even done a feasibility study on the economic realities of a 2nd team in Southern Ontario (which hints at their willingness to have a second team here). The NHL doesn't want a team here and the Leafs don't want a team here. The only thing that will change either of their minds is a massive cheque. They aren't going to give anyone a discount especially when they know that they could set any asking price for an expansion team in this city and have a bidding war.

We've had this conversation before, so I'd suggest you read that thread: http://urbantoronto.ca/archive/index.php/t-7741.html
There's a whole bunch of interesting articles and discussion points in there that don't need to be rehashed.
 
I see no point in a second team in Toronto. What kind of rivalry would that be? It needs to be in Mississauga or Hamilton to be a real rivalry.
 
Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
I see no point in a second team in Toronto. What kind of rivalry would that be? It needs to be in Mississauga or Hamilton to be a real rivalry.
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uh what? Have you never heard of a Derby? I'd suggest you do some reading up on Celtic/Rangers, Liverpool/Everton, Flamingo/Fluminense, Manchester City/Utd and this massive list of intense rivalries of teams within the same city. People get attached to teams for a variety of reasons and a new Toronto team could be a focal point for any number of different groups.
 
All this talk about expansion fees and territorial rights just shows how messed up and rigid our sports system is in North America. I wish we had the much more elegant relegation/promotion system like other parts of the world have. If there's demand for multiple teams in a city, then there are multiple teams. Simple as that. No fights over who gets expansion teams, no relocations when times get tough, no gambles on unproven markets, no Phoenix Coyotes debacles. Just simple supply and demand.
 
theterribleone said:
Let's say the Panthers played in North York, and the Leafs stay downtown. Would the Panthers charge the same?
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If not at the beginning, then certainly eventually.

The problem on the NHL side is that it would love a second Toronto franchise to be an expansion team in order to collect a big expansion fee, but with so many U.S teams at risk (Phoenix, Atlanta, Florida, N.Y. Islanders, Dallas, etc.), there likely aren't enough places for them to go if more than two (or maybe three) have to move. In a worst-case scenario, that could mean contraction, and the league would look foolish contracting and expanding at the same time. Even if things don't get that bad, I'm not sure anyone would be willing to pay an expansion fee, pay for a new arena, pay the Leafs a territorial fee (we're well past a billion dollars so far), and then also be on the hook if another team has to be propped up, or contracted. It could turn out that ticket prices for a second Toronto team would be higher than the Leafs.
 
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