Tolls, Road Pricing and Congestion Pricing

[gibsonm]

These comments again raise larger policy considerations about worker cohorting and scheduling to disperse commutes over non-peak periods, which I fully support as long as it doesn't damage the social fabric by excessively reducing social interactions. It's like working from home. As long as it works for employers and workers, great. However, that's not done through adding fees for drivers. I'm not even saying I'm opposed to tolls in all cases. I simply say that when tolls are implemented they should replace other fees drivers pay, not supplement them, except on new highways/infrastructure.

 

[sixrings]

Some people just want everything to be free and they will use anything including fear and conspiracy theorists to justify their side. This debate won’t go anywhere with this person.

 

[afransen]

These comments again raise larger policy considerations about worker cohorting and scheduling to disperse commutes over non-peak periods, which I fully support as long as it doesn't damage the social fabric by excessively reducing social interactions. It's like working from home. As long as it works for employers and workers, great. However, that's not done through adding fees for drivers. I'm not even saying I'm opposed to tolls in all cases. I simply say that when tolls are implemented they should replace other fees drivers pay, not supplement them, except on new highways/infrastructure.

Your idea around driver cohorting seems to be a dream/hope that drivers or companies voluntarily adopt that model? It doesn't seem like a real proposal. I know people who 'beat the traffic' and get to the office at 5 am. We still have crushing congestion at peak times. No amount of hoping the problem will go away on its own will do it, unfortunately.

Maybe you're more inclined to favour command and control solutions, like how some Chinese cities only allow a given car to be used on certain days of the week. I prefer market approaches that allocate scarce resources according to willingness to pay. I dislike how the 407 works because it has needlessly and exorbitantly high tolls off-peak despite being uncongested. It encourages people to drive farther distances.

I kind of agree that gibson won't be persuaded, so I'm content to leave it there with them.

 

[gibsonm]

If your solutions just involve adding taxes/fees, anyone can do that. I don't support fleecing people. Incentivize businesses to have staggered schedules and cohorting, perhaps through tax breaks and "green" or "ethical" designations and you might see some traction. Also, we may not see a return to pre-pandemic traffic volumes, as large swaths of the workforce embrace at least partial work from home.

The idea that you shouldn't bother to argue because you won't convince someone may say more about the power of the argument than the person you're trying to convince.

 

[sixrings]

If your solutions just involve adding taxes/fees, anyone can do that. I don't support fleecing people. Incentivize businesses to have staggered schedules and cohorting, perhaps through tax breaks and "green" or "ethical" designations and you might see some traction. Also, we may not see a return to pre-pandemic traffic volumes, as large swaths of the workforce embrace at least partial work from home.

The idea that you shouldn't bother to argue because you won't convince someone may say more about the power of the argument than the person you're trying to convince.

You are trying to come across as someone who is open minded and willing to look at things from others perspectives. But I’m sure you are firmly planted in your position and there is little if anything that will move you. That isn’t a commentary on the others debating points but rather your stubbornness to think outside your box. Either way we only all get one vote so good luck holding onto your archaic position in a more and more liberal world.

what I learned from your perspective is that you are against anything that makes your life financially more challenging (I don’t know how to debate this but to say that the current system is unsustainable in generating revenue for transit while inefficient in moving cars around, you don’t like the idea of gps trackers because they could be up to no good (I’ll guess you own a smart phone though) and somehow you think Toronto should fear people deciding to not come into it to spend their entertainment money or business money anymore. NYC and LA have taxes galore. People still show up because it’s the place to be.

 

[afransen]

If your solutions just involve adding taxes/fees, anyone can do that. I don't support fleecing people. Incentivize businesses to have staggered schedules and cohorting, perhaps through tax breaks and "green" or "ethical" designations and you might see some traction. Also, we may not see a return to pre-pandemic traffic volumes, as large swaths of the workforce embrace at least partial work from home.

The idea that you shouldn't bother to argue because you won't convince someone may say more about the power of the argument than the person you're trying to convince.

Our entire economy relies on using price signals to allocate scarce resources. You can call that fleecing, if you want.

 

[gibsonm]

There's much that can be said about the use of tracking for positive reasons, especially if it's just metadata that doesn't identify people. That's the argument for operations like Google Sidewalks and other data mining companies that use this information to help traffic engineers determine things like where to put traffic signals and how to time them. Pretty innocent stuff and even that didn't get widespread public support. I'd be genuinely curious to see how the public feels about a system that tracks motorists' mileage and location remotely. I actually think it's likely to be implemented at some point, because gas taxes will become less viable as EVs proliferate, and only tolling highways won't pay for roads and all the non-highway local trips. How that data is managed will be an issue. How the mileage is charged and how the revenue is used will be issues. I'm just not especially enthused. Some problems solved; new ones created.

 

[crs1026]

There's much that can be said about the use of tracking for positive reasons, especially if it's just metadata that doesn't identify people. That's the argument for operations like Google Sidewalks and other data mining companies that use this information to help traffic engineers determine things like where to put traffic signals and how to time them. Pretty innocent stuff and even that didn't get widespread public support. I'd be genuinely curious to see how the public feels about a system that tracks motorists' mileage and location remotely. I actually think it's likely to be implemented at some point, because gas taxes will become less viable as EVs proliferate, and only tolling highways won't pay for roads and all the non-highway local trips. How that data is managed will be an issue. How the mileage is charged and how the revenue is used will be issues. I'm just not especially enthused. Some problems solved; new ones created.

New vehicles are already wifi-equipped, and these systems are used by manufacturers to collect data to track performance and maintenance issues. No reason that a car can't be fitted with a "smart meter" that records kms travelled, time of day, and perhaps even interfaced with GPS to identify when the car is using a premium-priced road. There's sufficient firewalling possible to protect personal information (who drove where at what time) while collecting the information needed for tolling. Download automatically.
And the vehicle can have an information screen much like the current gas consumption screens - kms travelled since last billing, total cost since last bill, cost of current trip, current toll rate for the road being used, gps projection of the cost of the route that has been selected (and gps suggestion of cheaper route alternatives). Doesn't strike me as rocket science to work this out.

- Paul

 

[gibsonm]

I pretty much agree, but there are concerns. I can see many squabbles about the pricing criteria. The problem with simply driving up the costs at peak periods following "price signals" is that it forces people to pay more when they have no choice but to drive. Most people can't say to their employers, "I'm going to come in a couple of hours late [or early] in order to dive off peak. It's like driving up the cost of wipes because more people need them to sanitize during a pandemic. Sure you can do it, but imagine doing that in health care with vaccines or essential treatments. Do you want to pay more TTC fare at rush hour because the demand is higher? Transportation infrastructure serves a public need and isn't to be used to take advantage of the people who paid to build and maintain it.

 

[sixrings]

I pretty much agree, but there are concerns. I can see many squabbles about the pricing criteria. The problem with simply driving up the costs at peak periods following "price signals" is that it forces people to pay more when they have no choice but to drive. Most people can't say to their employers, "I'm going to come in a couple of hours late [or early] in order to dive off peak. It's like driving up the cost of wipes because more people need them to sanitize during a pandemic. Sure you can do it, but imagine doing that in health care with vaccines or essential treatments. Do you want to pay more TTC fare at rush hour because the demand is higher? Transportation infrastructure serves a public need and isn't to be used to take advantage of the people who paid to build and maintain it.

Don’t we pay more for electricity during peak times. And sure I’m ok with transit having higher fares during rush times. We pay more for parking during peak times.

I always hate these conversations because it often comes down to someone claiming this tax is as an attack on the poor. The implication is that if you are ok with said tax you are some evil oppressor to poor people. As someone who does some work at a food bank I can assure you that most poor people do not drive. They walk, bike, or take transit. Driving is a luxury item and should be treated as such.

 

[afransen]

As cars become more like smartphones (Tesla, etc.) I think the idea of being worried about GPS tracking becomes a bit quaint.

 

[afransen]

I pretty much agree, but there are concerns. I can see many squabbles about the pricing criteria. The problem with simply driving up the costs at peak periods following "price signals" is that it forces people to pay more when they have no choice but to drive. Most people can't say to their employers, "I'm going to come in a couple of hours late [or early] in order to dive off peak. It's like driving up the cost of wipes because more people need them to sanitize during a pandemic. Sure you can do it, but imagine doing that in health care with vaccines or essential treatments. Do you want to pay more TTC fare at rush hour because the demand is higher? Transportation infrastructure serves a public need and isn't to be used to take advantage of the people who paid to build and maintain it.

Maybe it would encourage employers to offer more flexible work arrangements, shift start times, etc. Or, it could encourage people to make different decisions about where they live/work. Maybe if you live in Oshawa you shouldn't take that job in Milton that pays $3k per year more. Or, if it pays $15k more, maybe you are very happy to be able to make that drive in 40 minutes instead of 2 hr even if it does cost you $5k per year in tolls.

I think there is a lot of merit to the idea of offering discount fares off-peak. It would help manage crowding by encouraging people to shift discretionary trips. As I understand it, Sydney does this with some of their fares.

 

[sixrings]

As cars become more like smartphones (Tesla, etc.) I think the idea of being worried about GPS tracking becomes a bit quaint.

I thought we gave up our privacy concerns as soon as we put smartphones in our pockets. People love to act like they care about their data yet most of us have social networking pages, casually click the accept buttons on pages cookies settings, use google for our searches and shop via Amazon. I’m not murdering anyone, evading taxes or having affairs. So I really don’t care if a drone personally follows me around during the day. I just want to be able to listen to my podcasts from my smartphone Bluetoothed to my car. If that means I give up my privacy then have fun watching me google or whoever else. And I’m pretty sure I’m the majority in that frame of mind. Or else we would all go back to flip phones while doing our google searches from libraries.

 

[crs1026]

I’m not murdering anyone, evading taxes or having affairs. So I really don’t care if a drone personally follows me around during the day. I just want to be able to listen to my podcasts from my smartphone Bluetoothed to my car. If that means I give up my privacy then have fun watching me google or whoever else. And I’m pretty sure I’m the majority in that frame of mind. Or else we would all go back to flip phones while doing our google searches from libraries.

I'm not either, so I'm not worried about that mobility data in the hands of the authorities.... so long as it doesn't end up in the hands of marketers. The fact that I drive to North York City Center three times a week should not lead to my being bombarded with ads from retailers on Yonge Street.

- Paul

 

[gibsonm]

There doesn't seem to be much appreciation of the Manhattanization of Toronto and the fact that living in Toronto is increasingly a luxury. It's the main reason property tax rates are so low in Toronto, as otherwise many people who grew up in Toronto wouldn't be able to afford to keep their homes. It's the reason New York subway fares are so low. Many people have to commute long distances by car for their jobs and they don't have reasonable transit options. You can say, "Well too bad, move downtown and sell your car", but many such people have families and couldn't handle the rent.

Basically I'm saying that throwing extra taxes at drivers to add more transit options for people who already have more transit options than country or suburban people just pits people against each other. That's why it's so important to see and build transportation options regionally (in and out of major urban centres), because you want to bring more transit options to everyone, including the suburbs, yet if you do this by penalizing drivers, you're eliminating crucial transportation options for everyone, including people who live downtown.