Tim Hudak wins PC leadership - Who Will Be Premier in 2011?

[GraphicMatt]

HRCs are such a non-issue outside of conservative bloggers. I am not a fan of them, as I get pretty zealous about free speech issues (even when the people speaking are morons like Steyn), but you're not going to get any political capital campaigning on the issue. The average person just doesn't care.

Also: they're called "Human Rights Commissions." People will assume you are campaigning against human rights. It'd be like campaigning for an end to Kittens.

 

[Brian69]

It's not the removal of HRC's that will sink Hudak; I don't think it will tilt an election one way or another. It's the Liberal-fed fears of his ties with Harris regardless of whether or not he actually follows Harris-style policies. The Liberals have already started stating it publicly and its one issue that will easily resonate with a lot of people.

After the Macleans brouhaha I think a lot of people are getting fed up with the power of the HRC and will listen to Hudak on this issue as long as he enunciates a reasonable alternative through the court system. It can easily be turned into a race issue but it's really about unbalanced judicial power and influence to the majority who want to do away with it. No doubt the Liberals will play up the old fears of PC/Reform extremism but its not the same kind of issue. Nor is it the same campaign-sinking promise as John Tory's school funding clunker as that one was not only about the importance of the public school system but also about religious education and spending more money on it.

Hudak has made comments about reaching out to immigrants and I believe he's being honest about it, especially considering he needs more than the traditional rural caucasian Tory power base to succeed in any future election. I still think he has little chance unless the economy really tanks so as it stands it's McGuinty's province to lose.

 

[afransen]

Are you suggesting that anybody who proposes any reform of the HRCs is not automatically a closet bigot?

Not really. I'm saying that anecdotes about transsexuals suing over which bathroom they use is a silly reason to get rid of HRCs. They serve a useful purpose in legitimate cases of discrimination. On the other hand, the ridiculous witch hunt against Macleans magazine (which threatened to force a national magazine to print an unedited Islamist manifesto) was an egregious excess. The problem with HRCs is that they are pseudo-judicial, and seemingly staffed by unqualified hacks with their own agendas. Perhaps if they were presided over by real judges and defendants were either allowed to countersue for expenses (or have these expenses covered by the court) would help deal with the kangaroo court nature HRCs can sometimes take, and help to ensure that they aren't used to harass people we don't like very much (like Ezra Levant).

 

[kEiThZ]

^ At that point though, they could well be courts.....

But I do agree with you, that throwing the baby out with the bath water is not the right solution. The system does, however, need some serious reform. Human rights issues are prickly as it is. Having unqualified or barely qualified individuals on a quasi-judicial panel adjudicating such far reaching decisions is over the top and puts them on shaky legal ground. That's why the HRCs didn't fight Macleans too much. They knew that if the fight ever ended up in courts, it would surely reach the Supreme Court, who would quite likely to put an end to their party. I think a solution could well be to have a narrower scope (closer to their original mandates) and force them act more as mediators for small, local issues as they did in the past. Precedent setting decisions with far ranging impacts should probably end up in court anyway where a skilled hand can delve into the issue... The case about the bar owner being forced to allow medical marijuana users into his bar and then being ordered to basically advertise this with signage is another ridiculous example that should have ended up in court (and probably would have had a different outcome).

 

[unimaginative2]

I just want to add that anything I'm saying doesn't mean I support HRCs unequivocally, but I just gave a quick look and former Conservative cabinet minister Monte Solberg seems to link Hudak's policies on HRCs directly to Steyn and Levant. http://www.montesolberg.ca/blog/2009/6/5/tim-hudak.html

 

[afransen]

^ At that point though, they could well be courts.....

But I do agree with you, that throwing the baby out with the bath water is not the right solution. The system does, however, need some serious reform. Human rights issues are prickly as it is. Having unqualified or barely qualified individuals on a quasi-judicial panel adjudicating such far reaching decisions is over the top and puts them on shaky legal ground. That's why the HRCs didn't fight Macleans too much. They knew that if the fight ever ended up in courts, it would surely reach the Supreme Court, who would quite likely to put an end to their party. I think a solution could well be to have a narrower scope (closer to their original mandates) and force them act more as mediators for small, local issues as they did in the past. Precedent setting decisions with far ranging impacts should probably end up in court anyway where a skilled hand can delve into the issue... The case about the bar owner being forced to allow medical marijuana users into his bar and then being ordered to basically advertise this with signage is another ridiculous example that should have ended up in court (and probably would have had a different outcome).

I believe an HRC in BC ruled the McDonalds can't require that its employees wash their hands. They can't fire people who refuse, and they are not allowed to have people who don't wash hands work there. So I suppose McDonalds (and every restaurant) must then close or be in breach of BC law.

 

[Whoaccio]

I suppose we should throw out all of tort law because there is anecdotal evidence of silly cases/rulings.

No, tort cases go to courts which have basic standards of jurisprudence and neutrality. Even if people disagree with the rulings, the process is probably fair. HRCs on the other hand go to extrajudicial tribunals with none of the same standards of fairness.

Also: they're called "Human Rights Commissions." People will assume you are campaigning against human rights. It'd be like campaigning for an end to Kittens.

Not necessarily. Just look at the UN HRCs to see how people don't just assume things with 'human rights' in their names automatically represent human rights. As a term, 'human rights' has sort of been butchered by progressive types to mean basically anything, often with no relation to human rights.

 

[lordmandeep]

The thing is the Tories have to win all of those seats in Brampton and Mississauga and many are dominated by immigrants...


HRC will have a huge effect on immigrants with their views toward the Tories. Already seeing rather negative reaction to Hudak because he seems like a Harris Type.

 

[Hydrogen]

I believe an HRC in BC ruled the McDonalds can't require that its employees wash their hands. They can't fire people who refuse, and they are not allowed to have people who don't wash hands work there. So I suppose McDonalds (and every restaurant) must then close or be in breach of BC law.

Sheer lunacy, of course. If someone gets sick or dies due to poor hygiene on the part of those "rightfully" refusing the requirement of hand-washing, are their human rights being violated by the act of preventing a supposed human rights violation?

The trouble with HRC's is not their existence, but the abuse (or allowance of abuse) that potentially exists. The main trouble with our "right-based" society is the profound failure to acknowledge an equal measure of individual and collective responsibilities in all of these cases.

 

[salmonz]

So Tim Hudak, MPP Niagara West-Glanbrook , won the leadership of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives.

Will this end up changing the fate of Ontario after 2011? Are Dalton's tax and spend, and deception days are over? The McGuinty government has increased taxes and will increase them even more on middle class families. The McGuinty government has increased our taxes, promised better health care and failed (i.e. eHealth), and increased our public transportation fares. They're planning to tax the sale of new homes, directly affecting Toronto, more so than any other region or city. McGuinty thinks he's doing right by increasing the number of public service jobs, while private sector jobs are going down the drain. On the current path, he'll spend this province dry, and only to raise taxes on everyone, especially when the times are tough.

Going to school during the Harris days I was subject to being the guinea pig for the new cirriculum. I wasn't impressed how they handled the first years of each new grade and vowed to myself that the Harris government shouldn't re-elected. However, growing up, and seeing how much the alternative, the Liberal government, deceived the entire province with implementing and lying about the Ontario Health Premium, I couldn't trust them either. I remember Dalton saying, "I won't raise your taxes, and won't lower them either." The irony...

I am not tied to any political party so I'm not exactly rooting for anyone, but Tim Hudak seems to be a guy always stating the truth, has a good vision for this province, and stands up and holds the government accountable for their actions.

Here's some questions for debate,

1. Should the Ontario Health Minister resign over the eHealth scandel?
2. Should Ontario implement the proposed HST? Does the 13% make sense? Should the HST rate be lower, i.e. 9%?
3. Total government program spending has increased by $28.3 billion or a 48 per cent since 2003. Dalton projects a 18 billion deficit for the next two years. Should the government cut back spending?
4. Should the health premium be refunded back to those who've paid it? Should the health premium be rescinded?
5. Should the investment in public transit be a priority in today's economy, especially with the automakers?
6. Do you think enough is being done to support our manufacturing industry in Ontario? Do you see any leadership with our current government? What are your ideas?

 

[Brian69]

As stated in the other thread, I don't see Hudak is a serious threat to McGuinty right now. Ontario still lives and dies with manufacturing and the downturn isn't really the fault of the provincial Liberals. It will be an ongoing problem though. I hope Hudak finds his own voice and distances himself from Harris because he does have some good views and we do need McGuinty's people to squirm--they've been coasting and deflecting every scandal through lack of pressure. McGuinty has had it good until recently, but if the economy really stays down then things might change--at this point that's a big if.

To answer some of your other points:

I was and still am pissed off by the premium (it came in while I was out of the country) but I can't see it leaving any more than I could see the GST being rescinded by Chretien. It brings in a few billion a year and it would be difficult for any premier to drop this cash cow. I'd love to see it gone but the money would have to be made up somewhere unless we want the deficit to balloon.

Caplan should resign because of the e-health scandal but I doubt he will. McGuinty should have dropped him by now.

Public transit is a necessity because were adding tens of thousands of cars on the road every year. The GTA is choking and quite frankly good public transit helps create good infrastructure and healthy cities. Better that then throwing money at failing companies (see below).

If we're talking about automakers then too much is being done for manufacturing in Ontario right now. But if you're talking about spreading it out evenly then perhaps not enough is being done as long as it doesn't involve handouts for unsustainable companies. Job retaining is a start but is more of a band-aid solution.

 

[adma]

Re the poll, De Jong's retiring as GPO leader, isn't he?

 

[afransen]

1. Should the Ontario Health Minister resign over the eHealth scandel?

If he should, then most of Harper's cabinet should resign for gross incompetence. The answer is no.

2. Should Ontario implement the proposed HST? Does the 13% make sense? Should the HST rate be lower, i.e. 9%?

Yes Ontario should replace the PST with HST--it's a win for Ontario competitiveness.

No, it would not be wise to cut sales taxes by $10 billion a year (8% to 4%). Just dumb.

3. Total government program spending has increased by $28.3 billion or a 48 per cent since 2003. Dalton projects a 18 billion deficit for the next two years. Should the government cut back spending?

A lot of that is infrastructure spending, and necessary. I am willing to entertain the idea that some spending should be re-evaluated, but I think increases in either HST or personal income taxes would be more appropriate.

4. Should the health premium be refunded back to those who've paid it? Should the health premium be rescinded?

First question: No, and a dumb question. Second: it should be rolled into the provincial income tax.

5. Should the investment in public transit be a priority in today's economy, especially with the automakers?

Another dumb question. Ontarians can't buy enough cars to make a difference to the North American auto industry. There are not enough roads in the GTA to accomodate growth in transportation demand, and it would be far more costly to build new roads than new transit. Now is a great time to build transit, when materials and labour are more available and less expensive.

6. Do you think enough is being done to support our manufacturing industry in Ontario? Do you see any leadership with our current government? What are your ideas?

I think enough is being done. We should be realistic and acknowledge that some of these jobs are leaving and won't be returning. Maybe we can emulate the German model of high-value added manufacturing, but automobiles are going to be a tough industry for many years ahead. Government is terrible at picking winners, so rather than doling out billions to a few big firms, I'd rather see us pour money into venture capital funds to ensure that our embryonic firms have the capital to grow without needed to be acquired by foreign companies. Canada is dangerously hollowed out in many industries.

 

[GenerationW]

2. Should Ontario implement the proposed HST? Does the 13% make sense? Should the HST rate be lower, i.e. 9%?

It should gradually be reduced to 10%. That's a sensible, round number most people could live with.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Your post kind of reads like astroturf to me, but I can't resist a series of numbered questions so let's give you the benefit of the doubt.

1. Should the Ontario Health Minister resign over the eHealth scandel?

I don't think so - the McGuinty government dealt with the eHealth mess as best they could. They didn't try to hide it like other governments would. It was a badly mismanaged agency and that's been rectified.

2. Should Ontario implement the proposed HST? Does the 13% make sense? Should the HST rate be lower, i.e. 9%?

Ontario wouldn't even have considered the HST without the Federal Conservatives pushing for it. It's a bit hypocritical for the Ontario PCs to try to make political hay out of the issue, considering I find it hard to believe they'd have turned down Flaherty's HST proposal either.

HST should definitely not be lower. It should be 2 percentage points higher.

3. Total government program spending has increased by $28.3 billion or a 48 per cent since 2003. Dalton projects a 18 billion deficit for the next two years. Should the government cut back spending?

Harris (and Eves, but Eves was just a patsy) destroyed government services and left a huge infrastructure deficit all in the name of fiscal conservatism. Spending needed to go up drastically after he and Eves left office.

4. Should the health premium be refunded back to those who've paid it? Should the health premium be rescinded?

No and... maybe? I'd like it either rolled in with income taxes or replaced with a 15% overall sales tax.

5. Should the investment in public transit be a priority in today's economy, especially with the automakers?

Yes. Absolutely yes. Especially with the automakers. Anyone who thinks otherwise is dumb.

6. Do you think enough is being done to support our manufacturing industry in Ontario? Do you see any leadership with our current government? What are your ideas?

They should start by manufacturing things that people want to buy. There are manufacturers that are doing well in this province. But overall we do have to face the fact that the sector is never going to be as big as it once was - the best we can do is focus on diversifying our economic output and retraining laid off factory workers.