Things You Can Learn From Seoul's Subway

[44 North]

U-Bahn is basically your standard subway. In Munich it runs underground most of the time, but some lines like the U6 towards Garching pop aboveground near Fröttmanning when the population density is too low to justify tunneling.

S-Bahn means "Schnell" Bahn or fast train and is similar to Parisian RER. It's like GO but integrated into the within city network. So in the downtown, S-Bahn is also underground. Aboveground it's definitely separated from traffic and its either LRT or heavy-rail depending on the city. I'm a little fuzzy on that last point since it often seems to be somewhere in between what I think of as LRT and heavy rail. I wonder if that's because there's no freight on these lines that it doesn't have to meet normal heavy rail standards. S-Bahn is great for getting around in the city and also to nearby suburbs.

Two other modes are used in German cities:

• Straßenbahn: is a streetcar. These are similar to our streetcars, except they tend to operate in their own ROW with highly-effective TSP. Stops are also typically spaced more widely than here. Of course, there's also busses.
• Regional rail: This picks up where the S-Bahn leaves off. Trips to neighboring cities. Not for nationwide trips though.

One thing that's great is that the U-Bahn, S-Bahn, and other local transport are all integrated within a single unified fare-by-distance model. It's all PoP so there are no faregates and usually no ticket booths in most stations.

And don't forget that oftentimes German cities have Stadtbahns, which is similar to the Crosstown in that it's a tram in the outer areas but underground in the downtown. It seems depending on the city these lines can be considered part of the U-Bahn netwok, or the Tram (strassenbahn) network - though I believe there's been attempts to make it its own class (e.g U-Stadtbahn).

 

[Napoleon]

And don't forget that oftentimes German cities have Stadtbahns, which is similar to the Crosstown in that it's a tram in the outer areas but underground in the downtown. It seems depending on the city these lines can be considered part of the U-Bahn netwok, or the Tram (strassenbahn) network - though I believe there's been attempts to make it its own class (e.g U-Stadtbahn).

The Stadtbahn is the same as the S-Bahn. There's some ambiguity in the German. Some people say it's Stadtbahn, others say Schnellbahn, and finally others just mash them together (as you can do in German) and say it means Stadtschnellbahn. So how's that for confusing!
And in case you don't speak German...
Stadt = city
Schnell = fast
Bahn = train

 

[44 North]

The Stadtbahn is the same as the S-Bahn. There's some ambiguity in the German. Some people say it's Stadtbahn, others say Schnellbahn, and finally others just mash them together (as you can do in German) and say it means Stadtschnellbahn. So how's that for confusing!
And in case you don't speak German...
Stadt = city
Schnell = fast
Bahn = train

I'm aware of the terminology and use of portmanteaus, but S-Bahn is not the same as Stadtbahn. S-bahns are similar to RER, and like stadtbahns usually use a central tunnel. The stadtbahn is a pre-metro light rail system providing local and medium service, and is very similar to a Tram outside the tunnel. Much like the Crosstown.

Tho I wouldn't doubt if there's some melding in between, like a tram-train. But for the most part I think it'd fit in between U-Bahn and Tram in being rapid medium and local haul systems.

 

[Johnny Au]

Though Bahn does mean "train" in German, it also means route as in "Autobahn."

 

[kotsy]

Thanks for the clarification, Napoleon. Now I'm really in the mood to go back to Germany. I had forgotten about their no fare gates system. I wonder if TTC would ever try that with the subway. If they plan on doing it for all surface routes and go transit already does it with their trains then maybe it could work for our underground as well.

 

[gweed123]

I've taken both the S-Bahn and U-Bahn in Berlin and the U-Bahn in Munich. Here are the key differences between the two, from what I observed:

1) Outside of the downtown cores, where both are in tunnels, the S-Bahn runs along existing surface rail corridors, while the U-Bahn is generally tunnelled.

2) The S-Bahn generally extends much further out into the suburbs than the U-Bahn does. Looking at the map, there isn't a single U-Bahn line that extends out of Zone B.

Aside from that, the two are very, very similar. It's this type of relationship that I hope Subway and RER can become.

Here's the Berlin system map:
http://berlinmap360.com/carte/image/en/berlin-s-bahn-map.jpg

They also have the Regional lines, which extend even further out. I have family in Karow, which is on the S2 in the northeastern part of Berlin. The S-Bahn station is located in the middle of the town (it really has a village feel to it), but the S-Bahn station is also served by Regional trains, which when I was there were using Bombardier Talents (the same kind the O-Train used).

Generally, the S-Bahn lines have 3 patterns: E-W, N-S, or around the Ring. Both the N-S and E-W lines funnel to one central corridor through the city. The E-W line is mainly elevated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Stadtbahn), while the N-S line is tunnelled.

I have to say, seeing that type of system in action had a big impact on how I saw the relationship between subway and RER, and was a big part of me developing my GO REX plan, particularly funnelling Toronto-centric RER routes through a central tunnel.

PS: For Berlin's new airport (replacing both Tegel and Schönefeld), integration with the S-Bahn was built into the plan from Day 1, with both the S9 and S45 routes serving it, as well as a plethora of Regional routes. Pearson won't be seeing that kind of service for decades.

 

[44 North]

Good stuff. And one cool thing about Berlin is that on top of this expansive subway and subway-like regional rail system, it has one of the largest streetcar/tram systems in the world. They got the whole gamut of railed transit covered.

But just so it doesn't add confusion to my post about Stadtbahns, I wanted to point out to others that although their central artery for rail routes is called "Berlin Stadtbahn" - that's merely the name of the rail corridor. Much like USRC or a future 'Midtown Corridor'. And although it carries a plethora of converging rail routes across the city, none of these are in fact Stadtbahn or tram routes.

 

[the lemur]

Have you been to Munich?

It is 100 times easier to get around Munich than Toronto. Just look at the map of the U-Bahn (subway) and S-Bahn (RER-style rail that also fills the inner core).

Look at that ... 2 lines to the airport!

 

[Napoleon]

But just so it doesn't add confusion to my post about Stadtbahns, I wanted to point out to others that although their central artery for rail routes is called "Berlin Stadtbahn" - that's merely the name of the rail corridor. Much like USRC or a future 'Midtown Corridor'. And although it carries a plethora of converging rail routes across the city, none of these are in fact Stadtbahn or tram routes.

There's definitely a lot of confusion around terms. I lived in Germany for a while and have traveled a lot in the country, but I've never heard anyone refer to a train as a Stadtbahn. People will say Tram or Strassenbahn for vehicles that are more streetcar or LRT like. I think perhaps the official transit-style vocabulary doesn't line up with the vernacular very well.

 

[the lemur]

There's definitely a lot of confusion around terms. I lived in Germany for a while and have traveled a lot in the country, but I've never heard anyone refer to a train as a Stadtbahn. People will say Tram or Strassenbahn for vehicles that are more streetcar or LRT like. I think perhaps the official transit-style vocabulary doesn't line up with the vernacular very well.

For a long time I thought S-bahn was short for Stadtbahn but Stadtschnellbahn might be best rendered as 'express urban rail'.

Stadtbahn itself can refer to several different things as its meaning has evolved over time and it is used differently in different areas:

1. railway-like interurban stretches, late 19th century, such as the Berliner Stadtbahn (originally a streetcar-type line between Berlin and the former city of Charlottenburg), or in Vienna

2. 1960s onwards: on-street and off-street surface rail, underground streetcars on former rail lines (Cologne), regional streetcar lines, light metro/pre-metro

3. any rail transit entirely within a city, i.e., streetcar - analogous to the use of Stadtbus for urban bus routes

More generally, it is also applied to things like light rail, tram-train, O-Bahn, O-Train, Docklands Light Railway, etc.

The vernacular is, as you say, not in line with official usage (as above). Strassenbahn is the most common term for streetcar and LRT throughout Germany, Tram is southern Germany and Switzerland, plus a ton of regional names: Bimmelbahn or Bim (referring to the bell operated by the driver) in Austria, Strambe in Stuttgart, Drämmli in parts of Switzerland, etc.

 

[kEiThZ]

@Napoleon

I've always understood "Schnellbahn" to be a colloquial phrase. Not an official one. Stadtbahn is what I always thought to be the official name of all the S-bahn lines in the different German and Austrian cities.

@gweed123

U-bahn is under ground because it stands for Untergrundbahn, literally underground railway.

 

[ksun]

And yet transit ridership in Toronto has a higher share than Munich.

Because Toronto has twice the population?

 

[MisterF]

PS: For Berlin's new airport (replacing both Tegel and Schönefeld), integration with the S-Bahn was built into the plan from Day 1, with both the S9 and S45 routes serving it, as well as a plethora of Regional routes. Pearson won't be seeing that kind of service for decades.

The thing is, once the GO Kitchener line is electrified it would be relatively simple to have GO trains serve the airport directly (using smaller trains). The rest of the infrastructure is there already. Then the UP Express can focus on an actual express service. It doesn't have to be decades away.

 

[gweed123]

The thing is, once the GO Kitchener line is electrified it would be relatively simple to have GO trains serve the airport directly (using smaller trains). The rest of the infrastructure is there already. Then the UP Express can focus on an actual express service. It doesn't have to be decades away.

Yup, agreed completely. Have GO RER serve as the "local" option, and UPX as the "premium express" option. The issue with the UPX now isn't UPX itself, it's the lack of anything else. We have our equivalent of Heathrow Express, but we don't have our equivalents of Heathrow Connect or the Tube to go with it.

 

[LNahid2000]

Yup, agreed completely. Have GO RER serve as the "local" option, and UPX as the "premium express" option. The issue with the UPX now isn't UPX itself, it's the lack of anything else. We have our equivalent of Heathrow Express, but we don't have our equivalents of Heathrow Connect or the Tube to go with it.

I'd say the UP Express is more like Heathrow Connect actually. Heathrow Express runs nonstop between Paddington and the airport, while Heathrow Connect has stops (like the UP Express).