The Great PC/Mac Debate (Embarrassing Revelations for Windows Vista)

[kEiThZ]

That isn't true. Having purchased a computer last year (when the
newest line of Imacs were released), you could definitely find PCs
with better specs for a cheaper price. At this point, a lot of the
Imacs on sale are quite far behind in specs...but the price is still
the same.

1) You can find PCs cheaper but not all-in-ones...though recent HPs are finally beating out Apple
2) Apple does not change its price points it just updates the products every six months. This means that for 3 months before an update the price/performance point sucks. But hey, that's how they choose to do business. It's up to the consumer to deal with it.

PC makers have been building all-in-ones for many years. It's nothing
new. There just isn't the same demand for it; they're harder to
upgrade and customize.

Given the popularity of the iMac, I'd say there is plenty of demand for it. PC makers just don't want to acknowledge that design sells. Thankfully, they finally get it and are designing some really nice all-in-ones.

Yes, I agree. Software efficiency can reduce the impact of limited hardware. That really isn't the issue though; the fact is you're paying a lot more for the hardware.

Agreed that you are paying more. But because OS X is not a resource hog your performance remains strong. And Mac also incorporates unique chipsets like the Nvidia onboard GPU. So there is some merit to getting less hardware and better software. And it's curious that PC magazine routinely says that macs are the best rig to run Vista so they are obviously well built.

First of all, I would say that anecdotal evidence doesn't really mean much in this case when talking about overall usage. One day you may see a lot of people using Mac laptops, and the next day you'll see a lot of them using PC laptops.

Fair enough...But I do see MBs and MBPs having well above average popularity with university kids....and not just in Ottawa either. That's not to say that Apple has a huge market share here, PCs still rule....but Apple is gaining ground and has targeted this demographic quite well...free ipod and a discount!

Macbooks are certainly popular. They're generally good systems and I can see why they appeal to a lot of people. But let's face it; as long as you can find full featured laptops (from a student perspective) considerably cheaper than Apple, they're going to be a lot more common than Apples.

But if you think the MBP is overpriced, then surely the Macbook is too. I certainly think the recent refresh has made the MB overpriced.

Well, I'd say it's more aesthetics than design. I agree though, it's a big plus and rightfully so. Apples laptop lineup (at least the previous generation) was probably the best looking on the market. Even that's changing, however, as competitors put out more aesthetically pleasing designs. Sony has a few pretty good ones (that have apparently have terrific build quality too), except you don't have to pay a huge premium for them.

I would not count, a multi-touch glass trackpad, a magsafe adaptor or a machined unibody as aesthetics. That's design. Sony does not come close on this front.

All of which you can find on PCs too. The IMac all-in-one isn't perfect either; they use laptop parts to fit everything in, and the location of the optical drive isn't practical in a lot of situations either.

Agreed. But that does not mean, that there is no market for it.....

 

[syn]

1) You can find PCs cheaper but not all-in-ones...though recent HPs are finally beating out Apple
2) Apple does not change its price points it just updates the products every six months. This means that for 3 months before an update the price/performance point sucks. But hey, that's how they choose to do business. It's up to the consumer to deal with it.

The current Imac specs weren't even that impressive last year. They were updated in April and still only offer Core 2 Duo processors. The cheapest model, at $1299, still just comes with 1 GB of RAM. As stated, PCs even a year ago were coming with at least 2 GB.

Given the popularity of the iMac, I'd say there is plenty of demand for it. PC makers just don't want to acknowledge that design sells. Thankfully, they finally get it and are designing some really nice all-in-ones.

I think you're seriously overestimating the popularity of Macs. They still have just a small fraction of the entire computer market.

All-in-one computers have been around since the early days of desktops. The truth is, at this point they're a niche product. Their popularity is well behind that of laptops, which often use the same parts but offer the portability you can't get from an All-in-One. They also lag behind their regular desktop counterparts in performance and practicality in many ways.

Agreed that you are paying more. But because OS X is not a resource hog your performance remains strong. And Mac also incorporates unique chipsets like the Nvidia onboard GPU. So there is some merit to getting less hardware and better software. And it's curious that PC magazine routinely says that macs are the best rig to run Vista so they are obviously well built.

The Nvidia chipset isn't really that unique. You'll be able to find it in a lot of systems very shortly.

Fair enough...But I do see MBs and MBPs having well above average popularity with university kids....and not just in Ottawa either. That's not to say that Apple has a huge market share here, PCs still rule....but Apple is gaining ground and has targeted this demographic quite well...free ipod and a discount!

Yeah, the only problem is that it's still a pricey proposition even with the discount.

But if you think the MBP is overpriced, then surely the Macbook is too. I certainly think the recent refresh has made the MB overpriced.

I think the regular MB offers the best value in the lineup.

I would not count, a multi-touch glass trackpad, a magsafe adaptor or a machined unibody as aesthetics. That's design. Sony does not come close on this front.

Just as the Macbook Pro doesn't come close on many other fronts.

People often mistake something that looks nice as being well designed (the Macbook Air is a good example). The MBP has some nice features, but overall I wouldn't say it's the best designed laptop out there. The fact that it's missing a lot of pratical features that have been available on PCs for years is a big knock against it.

Agreed. But that does not mean, that there is no market for it.....

There is certainly a market for it.

 

[digi]

Wow, the Mac fanboys are a really touchy bunch.

 

[afransen]

"All-in-one computers have been around since the early days of desktops. The truth is, at this point they're a niche product. At this point, their popularity is well behind that of laptops, which often use the same parts but offer the portability you can't get from an All-in-One."

When the computing department at my university was buying IMacs to replace windows desktops, I would completely lost as to why they would use the funds in that way. I sat on the endowment fund from which they sought money to upgrade to a better model. For the price point, I was astonished that they were considering Macs. I've always thought of these all-in-ones as: "All the portability of a desktop and all the reliability, cost effectiveness, and performance of a laptop."

That is, the worst of both worlds.

It took nearly a year for these machines to be fully accessible to all students in the faculty, as there was some issue with caching on the desktops that precluded too many users. I don't know if that is due to the incompetence of the staff or deficiency of the OS. The windows environment wasn't very good either. On the other hand, they were also piloting linux front end servers that could be used from various thick or thin clients in a lab or remotely. That seemed like a much better way to utilize the funds (relatively cheap thin clients, each around $500, and a couple dozen front-end servers rather than 120 $2200 IMacs that were frequently unused). I suspect that some of the decision-making there was a influenced by mac-ophilia.

I found it surprising that such high-end equipment (price point, anyway) performed so poorly. Again, I suppose it could be due to some incompetence on the part of staff, but they didn't perform much better than 7-8 year old windows boxes. I used these machines perhaps a half dozen times and on at least two occasions I managed to hose the OS without really trying. Thus, I am skeptical that it is any more reliable than windows, though I will admit I hardly used it. I profoundly hope that the school doesn't waste any more money on Macs and instead goes the route of linux front-end servers primarily and windows secondarily (for a few Windows only applications). I see no value-add from the Mac OS for academic use.

 

[kEiThZ]

http://www.hp.com/united-states/cam...4Q08Touchsmart/Overview/Specs/Engadget#/Main/

Finally, a real alternative to an iMac. If this had been around when I bought my iMac a year ago I probably would have gone for the HP instead.


Afransen,

i agree. I dunno about iMacs in a lab setting and I can't really see their utility for that, unless Apple was willing to provide downgraded builds. For most students who just want to surf the net, email, do word processing, etc a fairly low performing machine is sufficient. I think imacs are more suitable for the home user who is likely willing to pay more for design and aesthetics.

I am surprised though that a school would have to pay 2200 bucks per mac for 120 machines. That's a rather high end price for an iMac and exceptionally high given Apple's friendliness to the education market.

I am also surprised about your opinion of OS X. I find the feel of OS X better for me, the non-computer inclined. I like the integration. Just open photo booth, no need to play with webcam software and drivers, etc. In the year that I have had my mac, it's crashed maybe twice. My windows machine at work and my windows laptop at home have packed it in at least half a dozen times each. And I barely do anything beyond surfing and using office software. In general I have found both the stability and performance of mac to be excellent. Then again, I came from an old XP laptop and I have a Windows 2000 machine at work....so my opinion is proabably skewed a little.

Generally I don't buy into the mac/pc thing. They are each good for different things. I can't imagine using a Mac at work...say for stuff like Falconview. But I do find OS X great for my personal computing at home.....

 

[afransen]

From what I understand, there was no volume discount, and not much of a educational discount.

They bought high-end IMacs because they wanted the larger screen. Unfortunately with Macs, upgrading one component means you have to upgrade them all (high end graphics card, more expensive hard drive, etc.).

 

[kEiThZ]

From what I understand, there was no volume discount, and not much of a educational discount.

They bought high-end IMacs because they wanted the larger screen. Unfortunately with Macs, upgrading one component means you have to upgrade them all (high end graphics card, more expensive hard drive, etc.).

Regular price:
http://store.apple.com/ca/browse/home/shop_mac/family/imac?mco=MjI4NDk4

Education store price:
http://store.apple.com/ca_edu_93120/browse/home/shop_mac/family/imac?mco=MjI4NDk4

That's really high end. With education discount the 24inch 'low end' iMac runs about 1800 and the high end about 2100. And I have inquired about volume and business discounts before. They do provide them if you order more than 5. Maybe the policy has changed......

 

[w.ll.am]

I am surprised though that a school would have to pay 2200 bucks per mac for 120 machines. That's a rather high end price for an iMac and exceptionally high given Apple's friendliness to the education market.

I'd say one of the considerations was bringing in potential students. With iPods and iPhones, macs have become a whole lot more attractive to the younger generation. So when you're giving a tour of the facilities and you show off your new room full of iMacs there's going to be more of a cool factor than having pc's.

The current popularity of ipod and iphone is definitely creating a higher percentage generation of Mac users.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=9&qpdt=1&qpct=4&qptimeframe=M&qpsp=93&qpnp=25

Design sells.

 

[syn]

I'd say one of the considerations was bringing in potential students. With iPods and iPhones, macs have become a whole lot more attractive to the younger generation. So when you're giving a tour of the facilities and you show off your new room full of iMacs there's going to be more of a cool factor than having pc's.

The current popularity of ipod and iphone is definitely creating a higher percentage generation of Mac users.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=9&qpdt=1&qpct=4&qptimeframe=M&qpsp=93&qpnp=25

Design sells.

Schools are getting far more applicants than they can accept. I seriously doubt they need a room full of Macs to attract students.

 

[syn]

http://www.hp.com/united-states/cam...4Q08Touchsmart/Overview/Specs/Engadget#/Main/

Finally, a real alternative to an iMac. If this had been around when I bought my iMac a year ago I probably would have gone for the HP instead.


Afransen,

i agree. I dunno about iMacs in a lab setting and I can't really see their utility for that, unless Apple was willing to provide downgraded builds. For most students who just want to surf the net, email, do word processing, etc a fairly low performing machine is sufficient. I think imacs are more suitable for the home user who is likely willing to pay more for design and aesthetics.

I am surprised though that a school would have to pay 2200 bucks per mac for 120 machines. That's a rather high end price for an iMac and exceptionally high given Apple's friendliness to the education market.

I am also surprised about your opinion of OS X. I find the feel of OS X better for me, the non-computer inclined. I like the integration. Just open photo booth, no need to play with webcam software and drivers, etc. In the year that I have had my mac, it's crashed maybe twice. My windows machine at work and my windows laptop at home have packed it in at least half a dozen times each. And I barely do anything beyond surfing and using office software. In general I have found both the stability and performance of mac to be excellent. Then again, I came from an old XP laptop and I have a Windows 2000 machine at work....so my opinion is proabably skewed a little.

Generally I don't buy into the mac/pc thing. They are each good for different things. I can't imagine using a Mac at work...say for stuff like Falconview. But I do find OS X great for my personal computing at home.....

kEiThZ, I believe another version of that product was out last year. They didn't just release their Touchsmart line. With a full touch screen I'd say it's in a whole other category (aside from being a Mac alternative).

A lot of other companies make all-in-ones too; they've been around for a while.

 

[w.ll.am]

Schools are getting far more applicants than they can accept. I seriously doubt they need a room full of Macs to attract students.

A school will get less quality applicants depending on the way the school is viewed. Just because they are full does not mean they have quality applicants. It may be felt that by having top of the line macs that it entices students with a higher budget range to attend their school.

I don't know this for fact but advertising is a prevalent part of a schools mandate.

 

[cacruden]

From what I understand, there was no volume discount, and not much of a educational discount.

They bought high-end IMacs because they wanted the larger screen. Unfortunately with Macs, upgrading one component means you have to upgrade them all (high end graphics card, more expensive hard drive, etc.).

Educational discount is around 10%.

 

[cacruden]

Hmmmm, I think that a computer for every student - is pretty much a necessity these days.....

The area I would like to see the University "save" money for students is to actively encourage the development and use of "open source" text books that are distributed in eReader/PDF format.

 

[syn]

A school will get less quality applicants depending on the way the school is viewed. Just because they are full does not mean they have quality applicants. It may be felt that by having top of the line macs that it entices students with a higher budget range to attend their school.

I don't know this for fact but advertising is a prevalent part of a schools mandate.

A room full of Macs does not guarantee a quality computer lab.

I've never heard of any students basing their decision on a school based on whether or not the lab has Macs (at least not any schools that aren't art schools).

The money wasted on those computers could be used in a far more efficient way. The idea that they needed to get them to attract quality students just seems ridiculous.

 

[digi]

The idea that they needed to get them to attract quality students just seems ridiculous.

The idea that a mac attracts a "higher quality student" is also ridiculous.