Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[coffey1]

Just putting it out there. The Sheppard subway is an incomplete line build in the middle of nowhere outperforming some of Chicago's lines with over twice the length and all going downtown.

Sheppard might not be the Yonge line but a full Downsview to STC line wouldnt the epic fail everyone think it would be.

Sheppard East corridor density is growing to the point that when I go on my condo terrace, I can tell where all the Sheppard stations are by looking north.

Downsview area is due to a massive redevelopment project which will add more potential TTC users....or a 2028 Olympic bid making the western extension a no Brainer.

What about Sheppard and the 400 to take some of those cars off our roads? Underground parking + station so drivers can use the Spadina a subway?

Great cities were built this way. If every subway extension were based on the TTC ridership model, London, NYC, Paris wouldn't have a fraction of those subway extensions and stations.

I get the scarcity of available funds but we have a federal government willing to pick up 50% of the tab of any transit infrastructure projects that are shovel ready, giving much needed relief to both municipal and provincial entities. BTW, those 2 entities are having the "adult" talk that transit isn't free and revenue tools are around the corner.

Let's make Toronto great and world class. I was in London and the notion that going to one part of town to the other taking forever is utterly unacceptable. It's utterly shameful that Scarborough and nothern Etobicoke have horrendous travel time to reach their work place. That's not world class.

Let's just build the DRL Long, complete Eglinton east and West then Sheppard once and for all.

LRT on the waterfront, Jane, Islington, Lawrence West, Wilson/York Mills, Dufferin and Steeles.

Cheers. Well said

The divisive Politics needs to stop. Tory has withstood the Anti Suburb Left media flurry attack with poise. I truly look forward to seeing taxes raised and watching him withstand the City's Right media fury that will surely ensue.

If Tory does that and continues to lobby from the Govt levels above this City as a whole will be headed toward a prosperous long term future. The City's future needs him to cut thru the extreme Politics on both sides which have created a polarzing divide and prevented sufficient transit growth.

 

[lead82]

All this talk of world class makes me ill. That phrase has no meaning. Using Chicago as an example is hardly wise. Their subway lines are more like Smart track. Except for downtown they tend to follow highway corridors like the Spadina line and don't attract much ridership. Sheppard line gets low ridership that didn't and still doesn't justify the expense of digging the tunnels. If LRT was the technology we would have already built the line from SCC to Downsview.

The problem with the argument of having governments willing to spend 50% of capital funding is that this is catch up money. It will be quickly used up for badly needed upgrades and repairs. We need the money for downtown relief line to add more capacity so that everyone (urban and suburban) riders can get home faster and more reliably. Try riding the Yonge line at 5:15 north. It can take 20mins to get from Union to Bloor (one could cycle that distance in such time or less). A better use of funds for suburbs will be LRT. I wish we had the Finch LRT open so that residents can compare. Right now Toronto doesn't have any LRT nearby to compare it to. Sure Calgary and Edmonton are mentioned but those systems are far away and not something encountered. People see it as St. Clair and Spadina or QQ, which while having dedicated lanes are treated like local milk runs and not rapid transit.

Once Eglinton and Finch LRTs are operating I hope that Toronto will finally wake up and see that LRT is a superior solution for the suburbs. We could have had a line up to Malvern by now, but instead we get one stop subway extension. I'm hoping they build the Eglinton west and east extensions as that would make it a super important trunk line across the middle of the city.

Going back to Sheppard though, it's a tough situation since the subway is already there there is an argument to extend it west to connect with Spadina line. However, only Bathurst makes sense as a station. Even with all the development along Sheppard, the buildings don't add much transit volume. The Sheppard bus could easily handle the volume. The advantage of Sheppard could be to make it more of an express route across north Toronto. I think extending it west to connect the network and east to at least Agincourt GO/SmartTrack would make sense. I somehow get the feeling the city may consider the subway extension from a network perspective (since the SELRT isn't moving forward yet).

 

[coffey1]

All this talk of world class makes me ill. That phrase has no meaning. Using Chicago as an example is hardly wise. Their subway lines are more like Smart track. Except for downtown they tend to follow highway corridors like the Spadina line and don't attract much ridership. Sheppard line gets low ridership that didn't and still doesn't justify the expense of digging the tunnels. If LRT was the technology we would have already built the line from SCC to Downsview.

The problem with the argument of having governments willing to spend 50% of capital funding is that this is catch up money. It will be quickly used up for badly needed upgrades and repairs. We need the money for downtown relief line to add more capacity so that everyone (urban and suburban) riders can get home faster and more reliably. Try riding the Yonge line at 5:15 north. It can take 20mins to get from Union to Bloor (one could cycle that distance in such time or less). A better use of funds for suburbs will be LRT. I wish we had the Finch LRT open so that residents can compare. Right now Toronto doesn't have any LRT nearby to compare it to. Sure Calgary and Edmonton are mentioned but those systems are far away and not something encountered. People see it as St. Clair and Spadina or QQ, which while having dedicated lanes are treated like local milk runs and not rapid transit.

Once Eglinton and Finch LRTs are operating I hope that Toronto will finally wake up and see that LRT is a superior solution for the suburbs. We could have had a line up to Malvern by now, but instead we get one stop subway extension. I'm hoping they build the Eglinton west and east extensions as that would make it a super important trunk line across the middle of the city.

Going back to Sheppard though, it's a tough situation since the subway is already there there is an argument to extend it west to connect with Spadina line. However, only Bathurst makes sense as a station. Even with all the development along Sheppard, the buildings don't add much transit volume. The Sheppard bus could easily handle the volume. The advantage of Sheppard could be to make it more of an express route across north Toronto. I think extending it west to connect the network and east to at least Agincourt GO/SmartTrack would make sense. I somehow get the feeling the city may consider the subway extension from a network perspective (since the SELRT isn't moving forward yet).

Technology is not the issue its how you integrate it to what currently exist in this City. The previous design was far from a "superior" solution. The SELRT option is never coming back to the table unless we want transit Holy war down the road in this City. Rob Ford was its only hope and that came with a clause to fund the Sheppard extension. The thought that isolating Scarborough's Growth Center on a separate infrastructure to the main City backbone is not superior in any way & was a failed disgrace in City building.

Saying that, If the Eglinton Crosstown is extended to UTSC I could see a decent case for a Sheppard LRT as a loop. But I certainly see the inconvenience of the ridiculous extra transfer the LRT creates connecting to the current stubway & understand why it infuriated residents on the east side of McCowan so I would say its likely dead as well. If "they" want a compromise in the network this would be it. Fund the LRT Xtown extension and fund the Sheppard LRT as a complete loop. Otherwise build the superior design and connect the subway stub to SCC and the BD line.

 

[M II A II R II K]

And continue Line 4 to U of T to connect with Line 5 and beyond to Rouge Hill to connect with Durham Transit.

 

[Rainforest]

Perhaps any action on Sheppard transit should be deferred until after the DRL / Don Mills subway is built, to avoid competition for the funding.

And then, dependent on the new density data and ridership volume expectations, the appropriate technology could be chosen. That could be subway extension, if the density and demand for transit in this corridor grows faster during 2016 - 2035 than it has been growing up to date.

Otherwise, a full-fledged TTC width subway may still be too heavy/expensive for this corridor. Instead, it might be possible to find a technology that easily fits the existing tunnels (high floor or dual height), and at the same can be extended east and west at a lower per-km cost than a subway, and thus can reach the edges of the city rather than just STC and Downsview. But in order to win the support of local residents, it would need the ability to travel faster than the TC-style all-surface light rail.

 

[coffey1]

And continue Line 4 to U of T to connect with Line 5 and beyond to Rouge Hill to connect with Durham Transit.

You would certainly see alot of support for LRT on Sheppard if was part of an extensive FUNDED local network. Those who oppose the transfer to the Stub would be drown out by the majority. And certainly with SCC connecting to the BD Line I see no reason not to support this. Even more so if the LRT runs to Malvern Town Center, Rouge and the Zoo.

But if its just empty promises and hacked in LRT. The support will be to just build the subways.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Interlining would be possible after Sheppard West station (you'd miss the station), meaning your transfer point would be the new Downsview. But does that mean that you have just a Bathurst station between Yonge and the Barrie line?

If there is interlining, then there is no transfer.

The "Sheppard West" station would be just East of Dufferin/Allen and perpendicular to (and one level lower than) the existing station. There would be a walkway connection, that would likely get little use unless emergency short turns are inplace. All the ramps to connect Sheppard with Spadina would occur West of Dufferin/Allen. The north interline joins in just before the GO interchange station. The south interline joins in just North Wilson station.

There would likely be a station at Senlac. From the current termini termini Webleck, it would be cut-and-cover to the Don River Bridge. As long as there's an open cut, may as well put in a station. There would of course be a bridge over the Don River.

There would also be a cut-and-cover portion from the bridge towards Bathurst. This makes a Bathurst station another logical addition. I would also suggest that a TBM is not needed and shallow cut-and-cover would be used for the +/-1.5km from Bathurst to Sheppard West Station.

Before writing off the viability of a Faywood Station, one ought to take note of the development in the area:



See? Far more than near Senlac. Either Sheppard West is expanded as a 5 station project (including an infill at Willowdale) or why even bother.

Cheers. Well said

The divisive Politics needs to stop. Tory has withstood the Anti Suburb Left media flurry attack with poise. I truly look forward to seeing taxes raised and watching him withstand the City's Right media fury that will surely ensue.

If Tory does that and continues to lobby from the Govt levels above this City as a whole will be headed toward a prosperous long term future. The City's future needs him to cut thru the extreme Politics on both sides which have created a polarzing divide and prevented sufficient transit growth.

Technology is not the issue its how you integrate it to what currently exist in this City. The previous design was far from a "superior" solution. The SELRT option is never coming back to the table unless we want transit Holy war down the road in this City. Rob Ford was its only hope and that came with a clause to fund the Sheppard extension. The thought that isolating Scarborough's Growth Center on a separate infrastructure to the main City backbone is not superior in any way & was a failed disgrace in City building.

Saying that, If the Eglinton Crosstown is extended to UTSC I could see a decent case for a Sheppard LRT as a loop. But I certainly see the inconvenience of the ridiculous extra transfer the LRT creates connecting to the current stubway & understand why it infuriated residents on the east side of McCowan so I would say its likely dead as well. If "they" want a compromise in the network this would be it. Fund the LRT Xtown extension and fund the Sheppard LRT as a complete loop. Otherwise build the superior design and connect the subway stub to SCC and the BD line.

And continue Line 4 to U of T to connect with Line 5 and beyond to Rouge Hill to connect with Durham Transit.

Perhaps any action on Sheppard transit should be deferred until after the DRL / Don Mills subway is built, to avoid competition for the funding.

And then, dependent on the new density data and ridership volume expectations, the appropriate technology could be chosen. That could be subway extension, if the density and demand for transit in this corridor grows faster during 2016 - 2035 than it has been growing up to date.

Otherwise, a full-fledged TTC width subway may still be too heavy/expensive for this corridor. Instead, it might be possible to find a technology that easily fits the existing tunnels (high floor or dual height), and at the same can be extended east and west at a lower per-km cost than a subway, and thus can reach the edges of the city rather than just STC and Downsview. But in order to win the support of local residents, it would need the ability to travel faster than the TC-style all-surface light rail.

You would certainly see alot of support for LRT on Sheppard if was part of an extensive FUNDED local network. Those who oppose the transfer to the Stub would be drown out by the majority. And certainly with SCC connecting to the BD Line I see no reason not to support this. Even more so if the LRT runs to Malvern Town Center, Rouge and the Zoo.

But if its just empty promises and hacked in LRT. The support will be to just build the subways.

The Sheppard East LRT went to the Zoo then was cut back to Meadowvale Rd. It was not a stub. It was supposed to connect with the expanded SRT at Sheppard and McCowan. And the Malvern LRT at Morningside. That's how the system was supposed to be built. But now as you know, things changed.


Like I said before, Coffey and the others out east will want Sheppard East completed the minute the Bloor Extension went through. Let's just get it over with and forget the LRT for out east, we can use those extra vehicles for the Malvern, Waterfront and Jane LRTs.


And the residents of Willowdale do not want a station in their neighborhood.

 

[coffey1]

The Sheppard East LRT went to the Zoo then was cut back to Meadowvale Rd. It was not a stub. It was supposed to connect with the expanded SRT at Sheppard and McCowan. And the Malvern LRT at Morningside. That's how the system was supposed to be built. But now as you know, things changed.


Like I said before, Coffey and the others out east will want Sheppard East completed the minute the Bloor Extension went through. Let's just get it over with and forget the LRT for out east, we can use those extra vehicles for the Malvern, Waterfront and Jane LRTs.


And the residents of Willowdale do not want a station in their neighborhood.

McGuinty was up to his sly Political tricks back then cutting back a line that already created and extra inconvenient transfer to the subway stub & affected commutes West of McCowan. He (Metrolinx) also dropped the SMLRT off the "Next Wave". So no hope at all for 100 years basically under that scheme. That was a sad attempt at integrating LRT based on what Toronto has previously built, what we are building to Vaughan, the ridiculousness and low support of the current RT, and the total amount funded.

It was a complete utter hack job


Im personally good with the LRT on Sheppard if part of a FUNDED local network & since SCC is thankfully connected to the City's main transit trunk. IMO to garner enough support for the Sheppard LRT at a minimum the Eglinton Xtown needs to be funded to extend to UTSC and hopefully beyond. Otherwise just build the subway extension

Surely my preference is to seamlessly integrate based on our current network and that would be a Sheppard subway loop to SCC with LRT/BRT feeders from these locations out. But im certainly more than OK if the goal is urgency for providing transit to MalvernTC, UTSC, etc and have a useful local loop built.. And youd likely see that support from the majority in Scarborough as those West of McCowan Sheppard residents would be the minority and if ST/GO RER is completed they would still have a very high level of transit infrastructure nearby.

.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

McGuinty was up to his sly Political tricks back then cutting back a line that already created and extra inconvenient transfer to the subway stub & affected commutes West of McCowan. He (Metrolinx) also dropped the SMLRT off the "Next Wave". So no hope at all for 100 years basically under that scheme. That was a sad attempt at integrating LRT based on what Toronto has previously built, what we are building to Vaughan, the ridiculousness and low support of the current RT, and the total amount funded.

It was a complete utter hack job


Im personally good with the LRT on Sheppard if part of a FUNDED local network & since SCC is thankfully connected to the City's main transit trunk. IMO to garner enough support for the Sheppard LRT at a minimum the Eglinton Xtown needs to be funded to extend to UTSC and hopefully beyond. Otherwise just build the subway extension

Surely my preference is to seamlessly integrate based on our current network and that would be a Sheppard subway loop to SCC with LRT/BRT feeders from these locations out. But im certainly more than OK if the goal is urgency for providing transit to MalvernTC, UTSC, etc and have a useful local loop built.. And youd likely see that support from the majority in Scarborough as those West of McCowan Sheppard residents would be the minority and if ST/GO RER is completed they would still have a very high level of transit infrastructure nearby.

.

Listen, I have no problem with the Sheppard Subway being completed at this point, just thought I would provide some back ground. MoveOntario came just before the recession and we had no money.


Sheppard Subway can be completed from Sheppard west/ Wilson to STC and in exchange I want the Malvern LRT supported by Scarborough. Deal?

 

[aquateam]

The problem with the argument of having governments willing to spend 50% of capital funding is that this is catch up money. It will be quickly used up for badly needed upgrades and repairs. We need the money for downtown relief line to add more capacity so that everyone (urban and suburban) riders can get home faster and more reliably. Try riding the Yonge line at 5:15 north. It can take 20mins to get from Union to Bloor (one could cycle that distance in such time or less).

Why is it taking that long to go from Union to Bloor, and why at 5:15 AM? Are there early morning slow orders? The DRL won't fix that.

A better use of funds for suburbs will be LRT. I wish we had the Finch LRT open so that residents can compare. Right now Toronto doesn't have any LRT nearby to compare it to. Sure Calgary and Edmonton are mentioned but those systems are far away and not something encountered. People see it as St. Clair and Spadina or QQ, which while having dedicated lanes are treated like local milk runs and not rapid transit.

Once Eglinton and Finch LRTs are operating I hope that Toronto will finally wake up and see that LRT is a superior solution for the suburbs. We could have had a line up to Malvern by now, but instead we get one stop subway extension. I'm hoping they build the Eglinton west and east extensions as that would make it a super important trunk line across the middle of the city.

The problem is that LRT in Toronto will not be like LRT in Calgary or Edmonton. There won't be any railroad crossing arms coming down to ensure that the transit vehicles aren't stopped at every traffic light. The TTC has referred to Spadina, St. Clair, and Queen's Quay as "LRT", so it's not crazy to expect Finch and Eglinton to be comparable (at least for the above ground portion). I'm not saying it isn't an improvement in reliability and speed for Finch and Eglinton, just that if people are expecting anything vastly different, that what we have right now is completely incomparable to what we are getting, they are kidding themselves.

 

[justindw]

Why is it taking that long to go from Union to Bloor, and why at 5:15 AM?

I suspect that's 5:15 pm. That is about the worst time to try to board the Yonge line north bound. Waiting three trains before being able to board is not surprising. The trains have longer dwell times because of all the people trying to cram onto them, and the one at Bloor will be delayed as a good portion of the train tries to fight their way off.

 

[rbt]

Why is it taking that long to go from Union to Bloor, and why at 5:15 AM? Are there early morning slow orders? The DRL won't fix that.

Platform/train crowding causes slow entry into/out of stations and high dwell times at stations; also that's PM not AM.

 

[44 North]

Otherwise, a full-fledged TTC width subway may still be too heavy/expensive for this corridor. Instead, it might be possible to find a technology that easily fits the existing tunnels (high floor or dual height), and at the same can be extended east and west at a lower per-km cost than a subway, and thus can reach the edges of the city rather than just STC and Downsview. But in order to win the support of local residents, it would need the ability to travel faster than the TC-style all-surface light rail.

Definitely agree with this, and the lack of studying a 'different technology' all these years has bugged me. Both the City and Prov/Mlinx have seemingly gone out of their way to exclude options that fit the niche between "LRT" and 6-car deep bore subway, even though the options are out there. And not just for Sheppard, but other corridors too (e.g Jane, Eg East/West, Yonge, Finch, ...etc).

And even though I support the DRL, I don't think a study of *new* Sheppard options would necessarily have to be deferred til post-DRL. Perhaps the two in tandem could even boost the case for each project. If either a light metro option or a combined SELRT+FWLRT (using Line 4's tunnel and new infrastructure between Finch West and Sheppard-Yonge stations) were modeled along with a DRL terminating at Don Mills/Sheppard, we may very well see solid numbers that could support each. So yeah I definitely agree with studying new technologies that offer subway speed/reliability, but with significantly lower per km cost.

 

[Palma]

Before writing off the viability of a Faywood Station, one ought to take note of the development in the area:



See? Far more than near Senlac. Either Sheppard West is expanded as a 5 station project (including an infill at Willowdale) or why even bother.

google shows 11 minute walk from Faywood and sheppard to sheppard and dufferin (where subway station is located. From Faywood and sheppard to bathurst and sheppard its 13 minutes so I still say no station. Again people are so lazy they cannot walk 10 min. It reminds me of the Glencarin station on the subway, it only serves the people who get off and walk to their houses courtesy of Howard Moscow

 

[aquateam]

Platform/train crowding causes slow entry into/out of stations and high dwell times at stations; also that's PM not AM.

Ah oops, my mistake. I reverse commute early in the morning so I jumped to that conclusion.

Definitely agree with this, and the lack of studying a 'different technology' all these years has bugged me. Both the City and Prov/Mlinx have seemingly gone out of their way to exclude options that fit the niche between "LRT" and 6-car deep bore subway, even though the options are out there. And not just for Sheppard, but other corridors too (e.g Jane, Eg East/West, Yonge, Finch, ...etc).

And even though I support the DRL, I don't think a study of *new* Sheppard options would necessarily have to be deferred til post-DRL. Perhaps the two in tandem could even boost the case for each project. If either a light metro option or a combined SELRT+FWLRT (using Line 4's tunnel and new infrastructure between Finch West and Sheppard-Yonge stations) were modeled along with a DRL terminating at Don Mills/Sheppard, we may very well see solid numbers that could support each. So yeah I definitely agree with studying new technologies that offer subway speed/reliability, but with significantly lower per km cost.

It sounds like you're talking about the "Scarborough Wye" that Mike Schaabas proposed in the Neptis report on the Big Move, except with the Sheppard ICTS extended north west to Finch: