Sharon Yetman's Subway Safety Plan (Better barrier for subways 'an obsession')

[299 bloor call control.]

There are also a lot of delays caused by garbage or newspapers falling to track level, igniting, and causing smoke or fire. PSDs would keep that from happening. It'd also create a more comfortable platform area that could be heated or air conditioned.

 

[nfitz]

Where did you conclude that? The point of these barriers is that it's a Soccer Mom's $0.5m solution to an otherwise $5m projected cost, not that it doesn't require the "computerized signalling system, already being installed on the TTC, to line up precisely with the train doors."

Hmmm, perhaps the article is poorly written. It says "The high-tech gates rely on a computerized signalling system, already being installed on the TTC, to line up precisely with the train doors.". I assumed then that these low-tech gates don't rely on such a feature (and if that sounds an odd way to think, let me stress I read that section of the paper this morning before I'd had any tea! ). I note though, that there are systems currently operating in other cities where they have no ATC, stop the trains manually, and have gates.

Hmm, so it just comes down to cost ... hmm, here's another quote "It can be as simple as a dog fence." ... you have to be kidding me!

Surely the primary design issue here is how to stop people being accidently trapped between the closed doors of the platform, and the train. If not done properly, many people could be killed.

Hmm, the more I read this, the more hair-brained this seems, and someone could be killed. Perhaps she should be charged for practising engineering without a licence?

 

[TKTKTK]

Hmm, so it just comes down to cost ... hmm, here's another quote "It can be as simple as a dog fence." ... you have to be kidding me!

Ugh, just hope no one important hears her say that. It's what we'll get

Surely the primary design issue here is how to stop people being accidently trapped between the closed doors of the platform, and the train. If not done properly, many people could be killed.

I love the idea of the suicide barriers becoming suicide devices themselves

 

[andomano]

When was this on?

Apparently it's airing tonight.

 

[MisterF]

Strangely enough, about a week later TTC general manager Gary Webster and another suited transit official strode onto the subway train I was on and chatted to the driver near where I sat. I mentioned the idea that the trains should slow down as they entered stations to avoid possible fatalities from jumpers. He said they were looking at installing barriers.

Wouldn't slowing down before getting to the station slow down the whole line considerably?

 

[jn_12]

Just watched it. It was basically a dumb idea from a lady who didn't have much of a clue. She even went as far to say that transit operators around the world have used her as a consultant. Needless to say, none of the dragons offered her a cent.

 

[Fresh Start]

Yeah, I watched it too. At first it was funny but in the end, just sad. One transit innovation in the ep that did make a lot of sense though was that motorized snowboard (similar to a moped but with wireless handheld steering controls) a youngster came up with from Alberta. I was stunned that more Dragons didn't jump at the chance to invest in the concept. I could save on a lot of bus fare by having one of those.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Wouldn't slowing down before getting to the station slow down the whole line considerably?

+1. My thoughts exactly.

Also wrt trash etc getting to track level. I don't see how barriers at the stations would eliminate all of that. Portions of the subway run open air (Think Spadina ext) so any garbage outside will be drawn to track level and into the tunnels by the speeding trains. Plus there's no stopping people from depositing their trash in the negative space between the station and the train, or in the train and being blown out by a gust of wind.

 

[Dolemite]

i watched it last night as well. Surreal.
sliding door barriers are in place on a few of the stations along the Jubilee line in the London Underground. The experience there is a slight delay (a few seconds) for the train to come to a controlled stop aligned to the barrier doors.
No telling how the general population would react to being ushered into 'entry only' and 'exit only' doors, as a significant number of people in toronto just love getting off at the front of streetcars...

 

[nfitz]

Hi, I am the Dragons Den gal.
I know they made me look like a fool. One must understand two important issues. Every passenger deserves the right for "simple safety" and they deserve efficiency. I truly have created both by using a barrier wall for it's highest purpose as a method to also increase efficiency. In London Underground, in 2002 145 People died in their subway pits.

There is certainly a problem, and something should be done. But almost all of these deaths are from suicide attempts, so any barrier has to stop that happening. The TTC also has many delays from papers, etc., blowing onto the tracks and causing fires; so a barrier should have to stop this as well.

The biggest issue though is safety; we've all seen the horrific reports of that passenger that managed to get trapped between the platform doors and subway train doors on one system. The engineering and hardware required to make sure that something like that didn't happen wouldn't be cheap.

There's no question however that there isn't a problem to be solved, and congrats for going out there and trying to do something!

 

[UD2]

These barriers are all pointless until the TTC can have automated train control. Until then we can't have any barriers as drivers would find it difficult to stop the train in the exact position to match the barrier openings.

I think the TTC rightly rejected this and other technologies. Barriers are expensive and are not a priority to be installed. A higher priority should be to reduce the crowding on stations by expanding the system, and focusing energies on improving the station look, and cleanliness rather than wasting money on these barriers.

1. Beijing has done it without ATC. It just takes a few weeks of practice.

2. Perfectly agree with this point. Installing screen doors onto stations that are not designed to use them is an extremely expansive undertaking. If it's not a huge problem, then the process should be pushed until the more needed things are added.


Although adding screen doors can also effectively increase the size of the platforms, as people will now beable to safely walk closer to the edge without the risk of falling over.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Hi, I am the Dragons Den gal.
I know they made me look like a fool. One must understand two important issues. Every passenger deserves the right for "simple safety" and they deserve efficiency. I truly have created both by using a barrier wall for it's highest purpose as a method to also increase efficiency. In London Underground, in 2002 145 People died in their subway pits. That's almost one every 3 days and thousands had to watch. It is horrible and tragic. Train drivers often can never return to work. Our taxes indirectly pay for all of this.
Over 10 million per year is paid out for workers who can't work for TTC alone.
You must admit it is a difficult theory to show. I had to make it interesting and entertaining at the same time.
If those who watched can answer one question: Is it comfortable travel on the subways with those crowds? How does it feel to push and shove every single day of your life? Separated passenger flow is the only way to make it more pleasant and increase efficiency, aside from building extremely expensive new lines. Ask me any of your questions. Remember I have thot day and night on a single question. How to you increase the efficiency for the on/off procedure. I have created 15 different prototypes, 3 patents, and you only saw protype #10.

Hi,

Where did your cost estimate come from? Did you come up with it or did you hire someone to estimate it for you? A 10x disparity between your solution and the TTC's is enormous, it makes me ask what is missing

I agree that segregated passenger flows can be more efficient. However I believe that in a subway environment the only practical way to implement it is with dual side boarding, where one side is for boarding and the other is for deboarding. Otherwise I'm simply visualizing a long snake line of queues (like you'd see at wonderland) all over the platform. How do you respond to that; that segregation creates more platform clutter and thus reducing the effective capacity of the same station.

Re. the glass walls that drop down from the ceilings. What measures do you propose in order to prevent passengers from being caught under the glass when it descends, between the glass and the subway (with the chance that you may not be able to board the subway and thus stuck), leaning on the glass when it is raised?

Sorry I didn't watch the show so I can't go into detailed questions.

 

[nfitz]

1. Platform safety for about 1 million dollars instead of 10 million dollars.

Why is your solution so much cheaper than other designs? Have you sacrificed Health and Safety? How do you prevent people being trapped between, or even in, the doors?

3. Air conditioning and heating costs are reduced.

Given there is little to no AC or heating currently in stations, how are costs reduced? As TTC has pondered being able to add A/C, then costs could increase.

 

[Asterix]

If you use automated glass doors, end to end, and they are purposely situated along (not the platform edge), but along the "inner" yellow line, then six things are accomplished.

Another question apart from the cost estimation differential, what is different about your proposed electro-mechanical door device compared to the sliding doors to stations, escalators and elevators in stations, all of which are frequently out of service for weeks/months at a stretch?

Did you know if you could reduce the dwell time at Yonge and Bloor, that in fact 88 extra trains loads fit on the systme, just because of this time savings.

Would you care to share the math on this one? 88 extra train loads is an awful lot of people and I don't believe ATC proposals, with their reduced headways, comes close to that number.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I'm the dragons den gal.

5. SEPARATED PASSENGER FLOW is achieved based on separate "IN SECTIONS" and separate "OUT SECTIONS" based on the second set of doors.
The Out sections are directly infront of the train doors, and the IN SECTIONS are centred between the subway train doors.
EXIT SECTION PLATFORMS doors open first, and then on a time delay all the IN SECTION PLATFORM doors open secondarily. The In Flowing passengers actually walk along the yellow line (left and right) to enter the subway car doors, after the exiting passengers have FREE FLOWED out with nobody in front of them. The traditional wall of people are in fact removed! Hurray.
6. Significant Reduced TRain Dwell time, now allowing for faster and more trains arriving and leaving downtown Toronto.
More Trains, mean more revenue for Toronto, and move cars off our highways.
Did you know if you could reduce the dwell time at Yonge and Bloor, that in fact 88 extra trains loads fit on the systme, just because of this time savings.

5. How do you prevent a boarding passenger from entering via the exit doors. People are stupid and ingenious all at once, I've seen people climb escalators in reverse just for the fun of it. If someone is in a rush they may well push their way on via the exit if they see a line up at the entrance doors.

Most people on the subway are pretty good a leaving a central path for exiting passengers to deboard before boarding themselves. Rarely have I been in such a congested station that there is litterally a wall of people preventing passengers from exiting the train. Seems like you are trying to force a practice onto people who are already doing so.

6. How does having two separate phases (boarding, then deboarding) reduce dwell times? Logically I'd assume that it would be the same if not increase dwell times by 50%.