Rob Ford's Toronto

[Asterix]

The seating capacity of a bus (articulated or regular) is roughly the same as a streetcar (articulated or regular).

No. And it's that kind of incorrect fact that torpedoes much of your argument.

(Ever seen the 'knuckle' damage a bus does to the road surface? Certainly not a free ride there.)

 

[taxman]

Looking forward to Rob Ford as mayor of Toronto!

 

[archanfel]

Regarding streetcars vs. buses. I would actually prefer a streetcar providing it has its own lane and the route is straight.

Streetcar's achilles heel is that they can't go faster than the traffic and they slow everybody else down. Buses are usually faster than cars in a traffic jam because they can pass cars via the stations. Streetcars can't do that and they force cars to pass them on the right. It's extremely dangerous and practically undoable when there are parked cars. Usually cars rush to pass the streetcars on the right near an intersection. I actually think that's illegal although everybody does it. And of course a streetcar in station stops the entire traffic.

Streetcars are also very cumbersome when navigate tight turns.

However, once given its own lane, streetcars are faster, more efficient and more comfortable. They are really mini trains in that case. They are cheaper than subways where surface lanes can be spared.

I totally agree with Rob Ford that streetcars create a lot of traffic problems in downtown Toronto. However, getting rid of them is not the solution. Better planning and dedicated rails are required.

 

[The_Waffler]

No. And it's that kind of incorrect fact that torpedoes much of your argument.

(Ever seen the 'knuckle' damage a bus does to the road surface? Certainly not a free ride there.)

It might if you care to address the inflexibility of the fixed plant, in inability of SC's to reroute past blocked routes. The cost of the fixed plant and the disrupted service due to track replacement, downed trolley wires. Cost of the specific parts required for equipment and plant (flanged rail wheels are expensive, as are traction motors, switch frogs and the hose of other parts unique to the SC). I'm not certain if the SC's use an AC or DC drive system, however if they use s DC drive they are very susceptible to ground faults on the traction motors.

Roads are maintained regardless of use by buses, SC tracks costs are above the road costs. Knuckle damage exists on roads not used by buses... trucks cause that, too.

 

[The_Waffler]

Regarding streetcars vs. buses. I would actually prefer a streetcar providing it has its own lane and the route is straight.

Way back when, the interurban systems in North America were exactly that, operated on their own right of way, except in built up areas. The traffic problem is always going to exist because property is scarce and expensive in built up areas. That is why the subway is so successful, no interference from other modes of transport (wheeled, bipedal, or otherwise).

 

[doug]

I'm not certain if the SC's use an AC or DC drive system, however if they use s DC drive they are very susceptible to ground faults on the traction motors

Here's the part where you reveal that you don't have the foggiest idea of what you're talking about.

 

[The_Waffler]

Here's the part where you reveal that you don't have the foggiest idea of what you're talking about.

So, they don't use traction motors?

 

[nfitz]

The seating capacity of a bus (articulated or regular) is roughly the same as a streetcar (articulated or regular).

What's seating capacity got to do with it? It's the standing capacity where the difference is.

Crush capacity on one of the old 23-m long articulated streetcars is 205 people. Crush capacity on a 12-metre long TTC bus is about 60 people. Sure, an articulated bus would give you more ... but the typical articulated bus is only 18-m long. That might give you 100 people. Half an ALRV. The new LRTs are 30-metres long - the reported crush capacity is 260 people. That's over 4 buses, or even 2 articulated buses.

King and Spadina are currently crippled by the lack of capacity on the existing 15-m long CLRV streetcars, with a crush capacity of 132 - more than an articulated bus. The current plan is to replace them with much longer vehicles. Yet suggest replacing them with vehicles with less capacity?

There are some bi-articulated buses these days that are up to 25 metres long, but they are not used in downtown areas, and tend to be in very suburban places ... might be an option for BRT or Transit City LRT routes though ...

The biggest flaw in your plan, is that even an articulated bus is only slightly longer than the current small streetcars that we are getting rid of because they are too small!

 

[The_Waffler]

If they SC's can't keep up with demand, even with the ALRV's? Seems like a good argument for subways.

Not my plan, Ford's. Personally, I think the subway is the only way to go for fixed rail.

 

[doug]

So, they don't use traction motors?

Like subway trains and electric busses, they use traction motors. Driven by the 600VDC supply, however, your assertion that this causes "ground faults" reveals that you're clueless and are just parroting something you 'heard', but didn't understand....much like your other posts.

 

[nfitz]

If they SC's can't keep up with demand, even with the ALRV's, seems like a good argument for subways.

It's a great argument for subways. It's a shame that Ford didn't propose building a subway anywhere near any existing streetcar route. There's about 75 km of streetcar routes in Toronto. That would cost over $20 billion to convert to subway. Perhaps a better deal than the $15 billion we just paid for new fighter jets ...

 

[Electrify]

Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I can see Ford becoming a "born again Liberal." While he might be a moron, I do sense his heart is in the right place and that he does want to respect taxpayer's dollars. If he does win, maybe he will realize that all urban problems cannot be solved by tax cuts, and try a more moderate approach. I also suspect that after he realizes running a city is more complicated than playing Sim Town (don't think he would be able to handle Sim City), he will not run again - assuming he makes it through his first term without resigning.

 

[The_Waffler]

I'm not certain if the SC's use an AC or DC drive system, however if they use s DC drive they are very susceptible to ground faults on the traction motors.

Like subway trains and electric busses, they use traction motors. Driven by the 600VDC supply, however, your assertion that this causes "ground faults" reveals that you're clueless and are just parroting something you 'heard', but didn't understand....much like your other posts.

My understanding is based on a diesel locomotive, which uses a diesel to generate electricity that is fed to traction motors. The DC motor (on a diesel locomotive) is famous for ground problems when operating in excessive snow, blowing snow, or water. On the newer AC drive units, ground faults caused by these environmental concerns are eliminated. The technology of a traction motor is generally the same between trains, subways and streetcars, is it not? Toronto is not known for flooding, but we do get snow on a regular basis. I don't assert that they cause ground faults, but they DC is susceptible to them and I do see that I phrased it as such; never did I say they cause ground faults. By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't change what I've said.

 

[Asterix]

It might if you care to address the inflexibility of the fixed plant,

What do you think the average lifespan of a TTC streetcar is versus an average TTC bus?

Do you have specific maintenance dollar stats?

What is the total cost per passenger mile of a streetcar versus a bus, accounting for greater capacity on the streetcar (and therefore fewer vehicles and fewer operators salaries per passenger mile)?

in inability of SC's to reroute past blocked routes.

Due to the concept of a 'network', such as in the downtown area, streetcars are actually able to reroute past blocked routes. More streetcar lines in the network, better capacity for alternate routes. And if there is an accident blocking the road, it is very likely blocking any buses and single occupant cars as well.

The cost of the fixed plant and the disrupted service due to track replacement,

With the currently installed tracks and track beds (almost all have been upgraded to the newer standard), what do you think the lifespan of the lines is? How does that compare with road resurfacing and replacement timelines?

downed trolley wires.

What stats do you have for the frequency of downed trolley wires and how long they remain out of service?

Roads are maintained regardless of use by buses, SC tracks costs are above the road costs. Knuckle damage exists on roads not used by buses... trucks cause that, too.

And if you don't have buses, you are reducing the loading on the road and reducing the damage inflicted. You don't have to maintain the road to the same degree.

 

[The_Waffler]

It's a great argument for subways. It's a shame that Ford didn't propose building a subway anywhere near any existing streetcar route. There's about 75 km of streetcar routes in Toronto. That would cost over $20 billion to convert to subway. Perhaps a better deal than the $15 billion we just paid for new fighter jets ...

It is a real shame that there was no plan to build a little bit of subway in TO each year for the past generation or so. Had that been done, we'd be worried about other things, like the decor in all those stations.