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Rob Ford and Pride

Y'know, I kind of semi-speculated on what kkgg7's stance on things gay might turn out to be some months ago. Now we know.

It seems, too--again, as an affirmation of my past speculations--that he seems rather lacking in any comprehension of what one-on-one sexuality is about. Like, it's something "other people do"...
 
Ford can save face by attending a single event for the shortest period of time. Then he can strike "Pride" off of his list of civic duties and move on.

Exactly. He could show up, shake a few hands, notice a full garbage can, make a fake call to complain, hand out some wrong telephone numbers, and then vanish.
 
I once had a lesbian girl tell me that her need to dress like a man, get a man's haircut, etc. was genetic. I insisted it wasn't and got a 'homophobe' reputation among all her gay and bisexual friends. I've had similar arguments countless other times with LGBTQ people and it led me to conclude that mainstream LGBTQ organistations don't encourage critical thinking and empirical evidence among their members. Instead they encourage this 'everyone is against us, don't let them tell you that you weren't born exactly how you turned out to be'. Hence my lack of sympathy for the parade.

This is exactly what is happening. Homosexuality is becoming an untouchable, unquestionable political issue. All the straights have to think and say in a certain way otherwise they will be easily labelled as "homophobia" when in fact they have nothing against the gay population and were only thinking critically. But Gosh, that's forbidden in today's environment.
 
For most LGBT people when they hear someone tell them that they weren't born the way they are they're actually hearing someone tell them their lifestyle isn't valid, and that they've somehow made a choice along the way that they want to live an abnormal lifestyle. That may not be what you mean, but it's what they hear because they've grown up listening to a bunch of religious fundies telling them that God hates them because they chose to be gay. Indicating that they might not have been born that way indicates that at some point they changed, and the assumption is that if you changed one way, you can be changed back. This invalidates years of internalized torture that many of us go through while trying to come to terms with our sexuality.

This is the thing I never came to understand: Why do the LGBT people insist that being gay is genetic (not that I am saying it is not, but at least it is not scientifically conclusive yet)? And why the fact it might be a choice by some completely validates their lifestyle? So the logic is one can be gay IF he/she was born that way. How you described the LGBT people think implies that they also believe that if someone chooses to sleep with the same sex, then his lifestyle is not "valid"?

Sexual orientation, like climate change, has become a political issue where different scientific research and alternative conclusion, despite the author's purely impartial stance, is simply forbidden. Every member in the society is forced to believe the gay people were "born that way" and climate change is real and man-made. IF a scientist finds some evidence that says otherwise, he will be damned to publish it because it simply can't be true and shouldn't be allowed. I have no problem with homosexuality, but I have a problem with this kind of ideological tyranny.
 
This is exactly what is happening. Homosexuality is becoming an untouchable, unquestionable political issue. All the straights have to think and say in a certain way otherwise they will be easily labelled as "homophobia" when in fact they have nothing against the gay population and were only thinking critically. But Gosh, that's forbidden in today's environment.

Such self-serving claptrap. You infer that you and all the rest of the straights think critically but somehow the gays are muzzling you. Sounds like you're subscribing to a silly myth just for the sake of propagating a certain blind belief system.

No need to sound so shrilly theatrical, either. Who forbids you from thinking critically? No one. You just don't like it when others disagree with your worldview, or your attitudes toward human sexuality; get over it. Welcome to Societal interaction 101! The world is more complicated than you imagine. We're not all built the same, nor do we subscribe to the same theories (nor are we all captive to the same specific fears and prejudices).
 
Every member in the society is forced to believe the gay people were "born that way" and climate change is real and man-made. IF a scientist finds some evidence that says otherwise, he will be damned to publish it because it simply can't be true and shouldn't be allowed. I have no problem with homosexuality, but I have a problem with this kind of ideological tyranny.

Again with the sinister myths... no one is forced to anything of the kind. No one has shut you up, have they? Come on, get serious. Try to refrain from whining and making such ludicrous claims that you've somehow been enslaved into some kind of abhorrent Orwellian groupthink. Please.
 
Such self-serving claptrap. You infer that you and all the rest of the straights think critically but somehow the gays are muzzling you. Sounds like you're subscribing to a silly myth just for the sake of propagating a certain blind belief system.

No need to sound so shrilly theatrical, either. Who forbids you from thinking critically? No one. You just don't like it when others disagree with your worldview, or your attitudes toward human sexuality; get over it. Welcome to Societal interaction 101! The world is more complicated than you imagine. We're not all built the same, nor do we subscribe to the same theories (nor are we all captive to the same specific fears and prejudices).

You are being overly dramatic. I am not forcing anyone to believe anything.
For one thing, although one can believe whatever he thinks is right deep inside, if a politician for example speaks publicly that some evidences show being gay may not be entirely genetic, he will be damned as homophobe in our society instantly (although he may be supportive of gay rights), which equal political suicide. This kind of minority tyranny forced a collective hypocrisy.

I simply don't think whether the gays "are born this way" or not is irrelevant to gay rights whatsoever. They should have such right irrespective of homosexuality being genetic or not.
 
Again with the sinister myths... no one is forced to anything of the kind. No one has shut you up, have they? Come on, get serious. Try to refrain from whining and making such ludicrous claims that you've somehow been enslaved into some kind of abhorrent Orwellian groupthink. Please.

see? you showed obvious hostility toward someone who simply has a different view from yours. I fail to see how my previous argument is "ludicrous".
 
see? you showed obvious hostility toward someone who simply has a different view from yours. I fail to see how my previous argument is "ludicrous".

No, he didn't.
He responded to you in kind.
Basically, you feel you have a right to dish out your hatred, but you can't take it when it's thrown back at you....we see this over and over again in every thread you post to.
 
kkgg7:

Sexual orientation, like climate change, has become a political issue where different scientific research and alternative conclusion, despite the author's purely impartial stance, is simply forbidden.
...I have no problem with homosexuality, but I have a problem with this kind of ideological tyranny.

Ridiculous sentences. "Forbidden"!?
It's great to see your careful concern for a hypothetical, socially unmanifested homosexuality, free from any imperfect influence, or uneven influencing. But...tyranny? C'mon. The edict on the nature of homosexuality has not been centrally handed down from Pyongyang.
Plenty of people have viable, complex, scientifically backed views that, to different degrees, modify and/or even make minimal the "born gay" idea.
"Born Gay" was the best explanation available, popularly, for a long time for the gay community (fostered by the straight world as well in an absence of medical knowledge), and taken up as a good bulwark against persecution.
New ideas about sexuality are becoming available about all the time, now. Gay people themselves have never settled on a single explanation for their situation, nor has anyone else.
What gay people are however, is sensitive to manipulation and having their security undermined by interests that are misguided or even malevolent. ("Ex-Gay Ministries, etc.)
It seems you've confused a Lady Gaga song with legal writ.


This is exactly what is happening. Homosexuality is becoming an untouchable, unquestionable political issue. All the straights have to think and say in a certain way otherwise they will be easily labelled as "homophobia" when in fact they have nothing against the gay population and were only thinking critically. But Gosh, that's forbidden in today's environment.

This is a popular argument with evangelicals, and those striving, with a sense of entitlement, to impose their views on others. Another miasmatic variation on "Legalizing expressions of homosexuality will take away from everyone else's rights".

Sexual orientation is listed in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms to be free to be practiced and expressed, and done so free from persecution. You're making a fool of your anonymous self here, getting hysterical about things that are simply not problems.

Your posts are suffering from being badly written.Their terms and references are vague and unspecific - and unsupported. If your posts were more carefully written, you might catch less flak - they tyranny you seem so concerned about. It would also do you well to think more before you type, especially since elocution and consideration might be a few of the things that can keep you from the charge of trolling at this point.
 
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No, he didn't.
He responded to you in kind.
Basically, you feel you have a right to dish out your hatred, but you can't take it when it's thrown back at you....we see this over and over again in every thread you post to.

You can't be serious. And where did you find the "hatred" of mine??? I have no hatred toward any gay. I have some gay friends which are super nice, and I always believe gay people should have every right straight folks do, including marriage and having children.

you are labeling people again based on nothing but "if one doesn't believe gay is 100% genetic, then he must hate the gays" weird logic. Don't you see it is in invalid conclusion? I am not even saying it is not genetic, just say it is not conclusive and we should allow such possibility.
 
kkgg7:



Another miasmatic variation on "Legalizing expressions of homosexuality will take away from everyone else's rights".

Sexual orientation is listed in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms to be free to be practiced and expressed, and done so free from persecution. You're making a fool of your anonymous self here, getting hysterical about things that are simply not problems.

Your posts are suffering from being badly written.Their terms and references are vague and unspecific - and unsupported. It would also do you well to think more before you type, especially since elocution and consideration might be a few of the things that can keep you from the charge of trolling at this point.

when did I claim sexual orientation shouldn't be freely practiced and expressed?? And when did I even imply it should be prosecuted here?? Where did I say I am against legalizing homosexuality?
I completely fail to see the link between your accusation and my previous posts.

Homosexuality should be legal and protected, and I am 100% in favour of that. What I said is that that doesn't mean one can't question the theory behind the nature of homosexuality, and mustn't just take any claim for granted, just like one should be allowed to question anything. The Charter clearly states every citizen should have the freedom of opinion and right of speech.

You probably feel good and righteous about your moral high ground, without be able to see your huge logic flaws, not to mention tyranny of speech and opinions expressed here.
 
you are labeling people again based on nothing but "if one doesn't believe gay is 100% genetic, then he must hate the gays" weird logic.

Please show me where I've said that?
How pathetic of you to completely fabricate an argument.

I'll stop feeding the glutinous troll now ;)
 
I will add on a final note that the fact that we are having this discussion here is largely thanks to the fact that the parade exists in the first place, and that that is an undeniable accomplishment of the whole movement and may by itself justify its whole existence.

I am starting my reply with your final comment because at the end of the day this is what the Pride debate comes down to for me too, among other things.



That's what the mainstream media tells you. There is this myth propelled by humanists that everyone who is a homosexual to any degree is genetically predetermined to be so, whereas many straight people lack these genes. Biologists understand that this is nonsense.


You make it sound as if this is some academically unchallenged and tired old chestnut that's been floating around since the beginning of time. Not so. 'Mainstream' science (which I take to mean established and peer-reviewed), medicine and psychology have reached this understanding over time and only recently... and not necessarily that there's a 'gay gene' we can point to, per se, but that there isn't a 'straight' gene for that matter either.

All serious research and even common sense point otherwise. Same-sex relations were for example very widespread in ancient Greece. In modern Greece much less than 5% of the population participates in same-sex relations. Genetically, modern and ancient Greeks are similar enough so that if homosexual acts were a product solely of their genes they'd still be at it today. The reason why they don't is because social factors dictate it doesn't happen.

Social taboos may prevent people from acting on desires/drives but this doesn't mean those desires and drives don't exist, which is sort of the point.

The flaws in your point above are:

1) You cannot prove that the number of people participating in same-sex relations in modern Greece is 5%. At best you can only identify how many people openly acknowledge doing so. These are very different things, and these are slippery problems for science which 'demands' quantifiable numbers to be acceptable as valid. Instead you have a 'hypothesis' which many would refute.

2) The 'serious research' into sexuality in Ancient Greece that you refer to is also not quantifiable. Never mind the lack of statistics and so on, how the Greeks defined same-sex relations may cover everything from man-on-man hot times to something akin to the modern-day version of a 'bromance'. In other words these things may have been 'idealized' and celebrated but we don't really know to what extent they reflect true numbers.

If I got into the biochemical specifics of the issue I'd spend all day writing an essay here, but basically an increase in an individual's tendency to engage in same-sex relations can be attributed to either genes (unlikely for most people), different patterns of development caused by maternal hormones (in utero environmental factors), or environmental factors after birth.

Desperation and inability to have sex with women, for example, can lead to an increase in homosexual acts in many primates (ourselves included). This has been observed in chimps, and you have to look no further than jails and ships to see it happen with us. In South American military schools it was fairly normal for more masculine kids to use less masculine kids for pleasure. Culturally, the only 'homosexual' in that equation was the receiver.

To be honest you still do not make a compelling 'scientific' case that would refute the 'mainstream' position of science on this issue. On the contrary, you are hanging on to dated ideas about these things that have been discredited for some time.

Your points above really only underscore the complicated diversity of human sexuality and the inadequacy of our limited labels to try to understand it. You're absolutely right that a prison inmate who engages in homosexual acts isn't necessarily a homosexual (in the 'Kinsey 6' sense of this term) but is also not strictly 'heterosexual' either if we are using an inadequate terminology that forces sexuality into a binary opposition, in which case we would have to assume that under no circumstances would a heterosexual engage in same-sex acts, and no matter what the context... or else they aren't 'heterosexual'.

... and as for whether homosexuals are 'formed' in utero or afterwards we simply just do not know, but we don't know this about the formation of sexuality in general either (straight or otherwise). Reproduction is an act, and it is a same-sex act but just like your prison inmate there is many a gay dude who can carry out that reproductive act, and has! In other words reproduction isn't limited to heterosexuals.



Only humanists would argue that normality is subjective. It isn't. But you must define it before entering a debate. If you are talking about statistical normality then exclusive homosexuality is definitely not normal - not in wild animal species, not in humans, exclusive homosexuals are very hard to come by. If you equate normal with natural, i.e., not a product of human mischief but rather a genuine expression of someone's instinctive emotions, then most human behaviour is normal. When I use 'normal' I use it in the statistical sense.


We already know that homosexuality isn't 'normal' in the sense you mean it, but so what? Albinos and red heads aren't normal either but this doesn't mean for one instant that they weren't genetically/biologically predetermined to be albinos or red heads. In other words, 'normal' (as you define it) isn't germane to the argument in any way.


But quite clearly as I stated in my previous post, I do believe that if bisexual behaviour occurs frequently when social norms don't constrict it (and it does) there must be an adaptive reason for that too. There are studies that show that with each male son, the next male son's chances of being gay increase. This shows that the causation of homosexuality in certain males may not be genetic, but rather environmental (if in-utero). Homosexual males may stick around closer to their families and act as agents of kin-selection. For the same reason, a genetic component increasing the strength of homosexual impulses may make its way into families fairly regularly (though based on current evidence and contrary to popular belief there is less support among the scientific community for purely genetic causes than any other alternative). Females who have homosexual brothers appear to be more fertile than females with heterosexual brothers, in which case male homosexuality may just be a collateral effect of a process through which mothers enhance their fitness by making fertile daughters after they've had sons.

In fact there have been many studies that demonstrate quite the opposite of what you argue. There are established statistics that seem to point to the genetic determinants of sexuality in differing contexts (twins, number of male children etc). 'Nurture' in this instance has been largely discredited.

This doesn't mean that their likes, just like mine, weren't developed at least partly after they were born (not accounting for imprinting and gender identity is ludicrous). I'm not arguing that the extent of that equation doesn't vary significantly from one individual to another - for it quite clearly does.

Yes, sexuality is complicated and there are probably biological and social/cultural determinants at play for all, gay and straight and otherwise.

I once had a lesbian girl tell me that her need to dress like a man, get a man's haircut, etc. was genetic. I insisted it wasn't and got a 'homophobe' reputation among all her gay and bisexual friends. I've had similar arguments countless other times with LGBTQ people and it led me to conclude that mainstream LGBTQ organistations don't encourage critical thinking and empirical evidence among their members. Instead they encourage this 'everyone is against us, don't let them tell you that you weren't born exactly how you turned out to be'. Hence my lack of sympathy for the parade.

I would just ask you to reverse the role. Imagine that you are a statistic 'minority' in a largely homosexist world, and then imagine that homosexuals were constantly trying to tell you how you should understand your sexuality, and constantly telling you that your heterosexuality is a 'construct', the mere result of environmental factors. No matter how you look at it, or how innocuously you intend it, there is something reductive and dismissive in this viewpoint. Given the far longer and wider context of history and homophobia a little more sensitivity may be needed on your part, is all.
 
kkgg7:

True, you have not called for the direct persecution of gay people. But your broad lumping in of homosexuality with disease and tyranny is a hallmark of ideas that have been used to persecute gay people in recent history.

If you want to be more supportive, it'd be good to refine your terms.
 
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