Roads: Gardiner Expressway

[TheTigerMaster]

@GraphicMatt: Mammoliti suggests the Gardiner East debate is some sort of conspiracy to build a Lakefront LRT and then get cafes. (Cafes serving lattes.)

Isn't that exactly what our plan is with the bayfront LRT

 

[DSC]

@GraphicMatt: Mammoliti suggests the Gardiner East debate is some sort of conspiracy to build a Lakefront LRT and then get cafes. (Cafes serving lattes.)

Isn't that exactly what our plan is with the bayfront LRT

That Mammo is quite the sharp fellow, we seem to have underestimated him!

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Not sure if this has been posted, but I think this article puts this whole thing into perspective:

Chris Selley: Toronto’s future doesn’t hinge on Gardiner

My comment:IMO this is one of the best articles the Post has written! I'm on the keep side, but you are absolutely correct that the final decision made will not define Toronto's future. Old Toronto has lots of excellent waterfront spaces, though most of them are a pain to get to without a car. This one stretch will not make or break the city's future.

The real push for its removal is from developers, period. The hybrid option provides more than enough new space for development, but it is not enough to satisfy the neverending needs of uncontrolled capitalism. How many parks and other public spaces are included in the remove option? They can't develop on environmentally sensitive lands on the greenbelt, so they are going to build on public infrastructure instead, The funny thing is that the reason why developing here is so lucrative is that it is expected for public dollars to remove the Gardiner for them. If they had to spend their own money... well, let's just say the lobbying voices supporting this option would go real quiet real quickly.

And of course, the east end of this plan would still be very much cut off by the rail tracks. This is not an exaggeration. Not including the DVP, the next street going north of the tracks east of Cherry is Booth, which is 1.25 km away. A street could be put in about 1 km east though, but that is still a large distance without through streets keeping Toronto separated from its waterfront. If the Gardiner does go down, expect CityPlace East rather than a new Harbourfront Centre.

Electrify, thank you for the link. Selley makes quite a bit of sense, particularly in pushing for this to be done and dusted, and not deferred.

But your comment is... bizarre. Do you live in Toronto and ever come down to this part of it? To say that 'the east end of this plan will be cut off by the rail tracks' by ignoring Don Roadway is to completely ignore the fact there's a river and the plans for the area, whether it be the soap plant, the re-routing of the Don, the 3C site, or East Bayfront. The whole point of fixing the Gardiner one way or the other is to enable Toronto to continue to re-connect to this part of the shoreline.

 

[rbt]

Ford proposed widening the DVP. The discussion is getting crazier by the moment.

Building the boulevard and spending the difference on widening parts of the DVP by a single reversible HOV lane (combine with GO's plan to reconfigure the adjacent track) would do far more for traffic flow than the Hybrid option.

 

[Eug]

They specifically asked Keesmaat what she would recommend and she reiterated Boulevard. They also asked the City Manager (Livey) and he said Hybrid or Boulevard.

Here is the current tally:

http://www.thestar.com/news/city-ha...ill-vote-on-the-east-gardiner-expressway.html

17 Hybrid
16 Boulevard
7 Undecided
4 Not responded
1 Rob Ford

They need 23 to win.

Now it's:

19 Hybrid
16 Boulevard
7 Undecided
2 Not responded
1 Rob Ford

Yup. Rob Ford is sticking to his guns.

Council is on lunch. Back mid-afternoon. Those 7 undecided are going to be pretty popular over the lunch break.

 

[gweed123]

Now it's:

19 Hybrid
16 Boulevard
7 Undecided
2 Not responded
1 Rob Ford

Yup. Rob Ford is sticking to his guns.

Council is on lunch. Back mid-afternoon. Those 7 undecided are going to be pretty popular over the lunch break.

The odds don't look promising for the boulevard. With 9 unknowns (7 + 2), the boulevard would need 7 of them to win, while the hybrid would only 4. The most realistic possibility though is that those 9 split, and neither side comes out with the 23 required. Follow up question: what happens if neither side gets the 23 required?

 

[gweed123]

Building the boulevard and spending the difference on widening parts of the DVP by a single reversible HOV lane (combine with GO's plan to reconfigure the adjacent track) would do far more for traffic flow than the Hybrid option.

I wouldn't even open that can of worms. Knowing TO Council, the DVP would end up with a 10 lane express-collector system.

 

[pud99]

Omb

I have a two-part question for the municipal law experts on the forum: Could City Council's decision to go with the hybrid [sic] option be brought in front of the OMB, and if so how?

(My question assumes that the decision is not rejected by the Province, such as for failing to meet the EA terms of reference, which seems to be a genuine possibility.)

 

[pud99]

The odds don't look promising for the boulevard. With 9 unknowns (7 + 2), the boulevard would need 7 of them to win, while the hybrid would only 4. The most realistic possibility though is that those 9 split, and neither side comes out with the 23 required. Follow up question: what happens if neither side gets the 23 required?

Where the vote on a motion is tied the motion fails.

 

[rbt]

I wouldn't even open that can of worms. Knowing TO Council, the DVP would end up with a 10 lane express-collector system.

Yeah, the politics makes it a dead-end.

It's unfortunate that recently everybody who runs on finding efficiencies is consistently overspending to achieve very little, and ignoring/missing real opportunities elsewhere largely due to debt load caused by previously mentioned overspending.

Do they do that on purpose so others, perhaps their friends, can run on a platform of finding efficiencies?

 

[Palma]

I am listening to Filion speak and liked what he said. That 13-0 of councillors living in city of toronto are for boulevard and for those representing the burbs its 24-7 for hybird. That burbs should not be dictating their way of life upon the city is what he said

 

[TonyV]

I am listening to Filion speak and liked what he said. That 13-0 of councillors living in city of toronto are for boulevard and for those representing the burbs its 24-7 for hybird. That burbs should not be dictating their way of life upon the city is what he said

And that's the whole thing. There is no way that Tory can claim "leadership" on this. He's furthered the great divide between the city and its suburbs. Not a great leader at all - he's a guy in love with yesterday's solutions. It's a sorry mess for Toronto.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Michael Thompson will be voting against hybrid.

 

[Eug]

Michael Thompson will be voting for hybrid.

? I just read he's voting boulevard.

Still, not sure if this is premature or not, but The Star is now saying:

Mayor John Tory headed for decisive win on Gardiner East

Mayor John Tory is likely to win his first big council test and looks to be headed for a more decisive victory on the fate of the east Gardiner.

As the debate continued Thursday morning on whether to tear down the eastern portion and build a boulevard or create a hybrid that would maintain the elevated link to the Don Valley Parkway, the votes began to stack up in favour of Tory’s preferred option.

Both Councillors Chin Lee (open Chin Lee's policard) and Giorgio Mammoliti (open Giorgio Mammoliti's policard) officially declared their intentions to vote for the hybrid option on the floor of council as the meeting moved towards a final vote expected later this afternoon.

 

[vaas]

? I just read he's voting boulevard.

Yea, Michael Thompson is definitely voting for the boulevard.

Grimes, another undecided I believe, is voting Hybrid.

Shiner just announced his support for the Hybrid too.