Roads: Gardiner Expressway

[achender]

Looks like options are being considered that more closely resemble the original hybrid option.

From the CEO's report for the September 9th WFT Board Meeting.

Gardiner East Environmental Assessment
Since the June 10, 2015 City Council decision to proceed with the Hybrid Alternative, Waterfront Toronto has worked collaboratively with City Staff to further develop design alternatives for the Hybrid solution. This has included assessing if an alternative that more closely reflects the original First Gulf alternative is feasible. A Stakeholder Advisory Committee meeting was held to engage in a discussion of potential improvements to the Hybrid Alternative on July 21, 2015. An additional Stakeholder Committee meeting will be held on September 1, 2015. The purpose of this meeting is to obtain feedback from stakeholders on a short-list of design alternatives in advance of preparing materials for the September 22, 2015 PWIC. It is anticipated that a report to PWIC will outline alternative designs for the Hybrid including the pros and cons of each option.

 

[salsa]

In June, city council asked staff to report back on tolling as a possible revenue source. Here's the report: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-83671.pdf

Some interesting tweets:

 

[andrewpmk]

How serious is this proposal? I think that John Tory's approval rating would go way down if this were implemented.

 

[nfitz]

He's got to find $billions of city money for SmartTrack somehow. Which one would give him the least impact to his approval rating?

 

[mdrejhon]

Question #1 -- How many new total condo units are being built in the chosen Gardiner option (e.g. Hybrid)? How many new people? (I couldn't find this info)
Question #2 -- What kind of bike infrastructure is being planned through this region after Gardiner is redone?

As condos are a massive boom of new transit/bicycle users -- our roads/transit/bike infrastucture strains. Hopefully good cycle infrastructure is being planned in advance through the new condos area (permanent new bike/transit ridership), as well. Cycle infrastructure is really cheap, and has proved their full worth (read all 4 links before replying that bike paths aren't worth it); moving more vehicles-per-square-meter-per-day --

-- As we're finally starting to get as densified in some parts of downtown Toronto as many dense European cities -- the trigger point where a mere three meters 0f width to permanent fully-protected bike infrastructure is finally worthwhile.

It has to be planned of any condo boom going along this area (either as a side street, riverfront bike path, or allotment in the boulevard, etc).

I am a car driver, but I even acknowledge that Sherbourne was a bit "early" and wondered about its success, but apparently, it's finally becoming busy during morning AM now as the bike lanes finally start being connected (Queens Quay, Richmond/Adelaide protected cycle tracks, etc). Silly anti-bicycle activists do not realize how successful cycling has finally become in Toronto.

Whatever Gardiner plan is being planned, we have to make sure whatever condo area (that grows in the old Gardiner area) has a protected, safe, bike path reaching into downtown -- whether on the boulevard or at the waterfront.

 

[andrewpmk]

This is the Gardiner Expressway thread, not the bike thread.

I sort of support tolls, as long as they aren't outrageous (if you charge toll rates anywhere near as high as the 407, I will be against this). The money needs to be spent on building subways. I suspect that the majority of people will hate the idea of tolls though.

I noticed that the projections in that report assume a Sheppard subway extension (not the dead and in my opinion awful Sheppard LRT proposal). Is Tory trying to get this built?

 

[jcam]

Toll for the cost of a TTC token doesn't seem outrageous.

I think they've realized that with SmartTrack and the Scarborough Subway extension, let alone the Waterfront LRT, the City won't have much borrowing room left for the Gardiner UNLESS they find some other ways to pay for it.

I always wondered if the 6-lane gardiner could be re-arranged as 2-2-2, with reversible center lanes like in Seattle, or with Vancouver's Massey Tunnel.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I think they've realized that with SmartTrack and the Scarborough Subway extension, let alone the Waterfront LRT, the City won't have much borrowing room left for the Gardiner UNLESS they find some other ways to pay for it.

We realized that long ago. City Hall doesn't care. They just want to spend spend spend.

 

[44 North]

I sort of support tolls, as long as they aren't outrageous (if you charge toll rates anywhere near as high as the 407, I will be against this). The money needs to be spent on building subways. I suspect that the majority of people will hate the idea of tolls though.

I noticed that the projections in that report assume a Sheppard subway extension (not the dead and in my opinion awful Sheppard LRT proposal). Is Tory trying to get this built?

Good catch! I had an inkling that Sheps would come back to haunt us, and here's more evidence of that. I believe next Prov election it will be promised. Will it ever be built? I doubt in my lifetime, but I wouldn't hazard a guess that parties will dangle the carrot to win votes. And if it were to be built, I think a conversion to high-floor LRT or light metro rolling stock would be wiser than heavy rail subway or LFLRVs.

As for tolls on the Gardiner...I can't fully support them. The last thing this city needs is the diversion of more cars off the Gardiner and onto gridlocked downtown streets. If anything we should be incentivizing drivers to use it to get across downtown, or maybe tolling drivers that use downtown offramps.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

From the Sept Public Works Committee Meeting:

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/pw/bgrd/backgroundfile-83442.pdf

They are still investigating potential for pulling the Lakeshore from under the Gardiner.

AoD

 

[ttk77]

Toll for the cost of a TTC token doesn't seem outrageous.

And allow unlimited travel with the purchase of a metropass. Sounds like a great way to fund TTC projects to me, as well as incentivizing use of public transit.

 

[smably]

From the Sept Public Works Committee Meeting:

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/pw/bgrd/backgroundfile-83442.pdf

The only one of those three options that seems remotely acceptable from a public realm perspective is the third, most expensive one. The first option is almost identical to the original hybrid option (still goes right up to the Keating Channel) and the second, while an improvement over the first, puts the Gardiner on top of the realigned Lake Shore for most of its length, essentially killing any possibility of urban development or pleasant streetscaping. The third option is the least of the proposed evils, especially if it were funded by tolls (instead of draining scarce transit funds). I still don't like it, but it's a big improvement over the disaster that was proposed the first time around.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Totally agree. It's also mentioned in the report that somehow there is an issue against locating the expressway atop the Metrolinx corridor in any way.

AoD

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The only one of those three options that seems remotely acceptable from a public realm perspective is the third, most expensive one. The first option is almost identical to the original hybrid option (still goes right up to the Keating Channel) and the second, while an improvement over the first, puts the Gardiner on top of the realigned Lake Shore for most of its length, essentially killing any possibility of urban development or pleasant streetscaping. The third option is the least of the proposed evils, especially if it were funded by tolls (instead of draining scarce transit funds). I still don't like it, but it's a big improvement over the disaster that was proposed the first time around.

Agreed.

Are all three options within the budget allocated by Council?

 

[salsa]

What is the "rail bridge widening" about under option 3?