Paleo
Active Member
Road tolls aren't taxes. They're user fees. That refrain should sound familiar to Ford budget supporters. Except that it is a tax, when it's a fee on something you like.
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Road Tolls
- Thread starter hawc
- Start date
Road tolls aren't taxes. They're user fees. That refrain should sound familiar to Ford budget supporters. Except that it is a tax, when it's a fee on something you like.
nfitz
Superstar
I wonder if Ford thinks that city water, hydro, natural gas, should also be free.
Logic isn't allowed when dealing with Ford Nation.
If it's something they need, it's a worthwhile public expense and should be paid for using taxes. Demanding them to pay anything extra for it is outrageous. If it's something they don't need, then it's a complete waste of taxpayer dollars, and people should be paying for the extra services that they use.
hawc
Senior Member
Well then let's start charging user fees for evereything people commonly use then.
Let's start charging user fees on the stuff you like.
Ford haters are fine with user fees on things they don't like.
hawc
Senior Member
Ford haters don't like logic either Everything should be free - paid for by endless, magical tax increases.
"Daddy, can I have a bigger allowance? I saw something I really, really want to buy."
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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Who said everything should be free. You know whats almost free. Me having to pay for roads I don't use.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Who pays to repair the falling concrete from the Gardiner Expressway? The property taxpayer, not the car driver.
hawc
Senior Member
Yeah, they're not free, I pay for them in my taxes. So don't make me pay for them again with a user fee (second tax).
I pay for tonnes of stuff I don't use either in my taxes - public parks, public transit, community housing etc etc etc.
That's the nature of the beast. Get used to it. Or charge user fees for EVERYTHING we already pay for in taxes. But you can't pick and choose your own little pet causes, it's not a menu.
You - "Hmm... I don't like or use that so charge others a user fee for that. Oh wait, I totally use this so don't charge me a user fee for it."
Can't have it both ways buddy.
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rbt
Senior Member
Yup. Taxes pay for a ton of things that are in your best interest even if you don't use the item itself.
Community housing is almost entirely about disease control for the community. Person A drives to work everyday, straight from their garage to the garage of their employer but Person B working in the mailroom doesn't have that luxury. They walk past 2 dozen perpetually homeless/malnourished and unhealthy people every day. Person B gets sick due to constant exposure because disease has a place to incubate. Person A now gets sick because they interact with Person B.
The way to solve disease is to eliminate the incubation zone. That means ensuring all segments of the population, even those who cannot afford it, are relatively healthy (or dead, but we don't generally go there).
Rich Americans (top 1% by assets) have shorter lifespans than rich billionaire Swedes and Japanese and this is not a genetic difference. This life-span of rich correlates very closesly to how healthy the poor are for nearly every country that provides this type of data.
The society in which you life has a great impact, though very often indirect, in your personal well being regardless of personal wealth. That is, health is bought by ensuring everybody around you is healthy, and everybody around them is healthy.
Read about the work by Hans Rosling for actual data to back this up.
Many (not all) other government services have substantial indirect benefits and should not be pay-per-use.
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nfitz
Superstar
Exactly Charge fees for everything ... though I can't think of much other than air that doesn't have fees, other than basic emergency services.
Daddy, can I get stuff for free?
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Actually, get a ride in an ambulance, you may have to pay. That's why I would rather have someone drop me off at the emergency entrance of a hospital or take the TTC.
See this link for the complete information.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
This got posted in another thread too but there's a road pricing forum in Markham tomorrow and some good people on the panel...
http://www.yorkregion.com/news/article/1350077--forum-seeks-ways-to-get-transit-moving
http://www.yorkregion.com/news/article/1350077--forum-seeks-ways-to-get-transit-moving
nfitz
Superstar
Yeah, that crossed my mind, but that's why I put Basic.
If it's a real emergency though, pay the $50 or so for the ambulance! That way the medic has pre-assessed you, and when you arrive at Emerg., they will deal with you very fast, if it's life-and-death. It might be faster to take a Taxi, but you'll wait longer while they figure out if your really having a heart attack, or whatever. And based on the last inquest, have someone go outside to flag down the crew and bring them inside ... sorry, that's my H&S moment for today ...
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
No. User fees are not substitutes for taxes. User fees are meant to impose a cost (or exatract a willingness to pay from people) on the use of public goods that otherwise would be treated as free goods. That is to say, they would be used to the point where the marginal utility would be zero (exhausted). For example, roads are currently a free good so they're used to the point where they are completely gridlocked with congestion and nobody can get anywhere. If public transit was free, you would have the same effect with buses, streetcars and subways crowded beyond usable capacity (hell, they're already getting there!).
Taxes pay for the provision of the service. User fees regulate the use of the service.
Paleo
Active Member
Would you make the same argument for eliminating transit fares on the TTC?