Referendum on Transit City needed

[Chuck]

It is extremely wasteful of scarce dollars (and it's OUR money) to overbuild and put subways everywhere now - in 50 years they might be justified but not today.

I would have to disagree. It would have been quite wasteful to have massively overbuilt the Bloor Viaduct in 1918 given that the first subway train would only use the bridge 50 years later. And did we really need the Spadina subway in the 1970s when even today it's not at capacity? However, I don't think that you'd find a single person who would argue that either of these overbuilt projects don't benefit the city immensely today.

The mindset that we should only build projects big enough to suit today's needs is the sole reason why Toronto's transportation system is woefully inadequate today. This type of reasoning will be the death sentence to Toronto.

If canceling Transit City sets us back 5 years, who the hell cares? The result could be that Toronto finally gets the subways that will be essential to our existence 10 or 20 years from now. Though Ford is too dumb to know it and probably never had the intention in the first place, I believe he has the most future friendly transit platform that we've seen in decades. And in the chance that he decides to rip up the King and Queen streetcar lines to build the DRL, all the better!

 

[nfitz]

It's incumbent on us to finish it so it can reach it's full potential.

That may be true if it's potential weren't so limited, of if there were $4 billion lying around available for use. The only way this can happen under the current funding is to cancel the subway tunnel being constructed for the Eglinton RT. As Eglinton has a higher potential than Sheppard, then the path forward is clear.

 

[nfitz]

I would have to disagree. It would have been quite wasteful to have massively overbuilt the Bloor Viaduct in 1918 given that the first subway train would only use the bridge 50 years later. And did we really need the Spadina subway in the 1970s when even today it's not at capacity?

There are also numerous examples where the money was wasted for nothing. Such as the massively overbuilt Leaside Bridge in the 1920s to carry streetcars (or even the 1960s widening of the same structure to extend Leslie Street to Donlands). The piece of Gardiner from the DVP to Leslie, which was even slower eastbound than it is now (because of the 1-lane bottleneck coming down the off-ramp). The 4-lane piece of Gardiner between Yonge and Bathurst. The overcooked Bloor/DVP interchange. Lower Bay station. Lower Queen station.

In Montreal look at Mirabel airport and the piece of the 720 west of Highway 25, which by the time they finally started to use the overpasses they were so old, they had to structurally rehab unused bridges.

Remember the net present value of something that isn't going to be used for 40 years is effectively 0. You'd be better off to take the money and invest it until your ready. Or spend it on infrastructure we need now, such as the Yonge extenstion or the Downtown line.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I would have to disagree. It would have been quite wasteful to have massively overbuilt the Bloor Viaduct in 1918 given that the first subway train would only use the bridge 50 years later. And did we really need the Spadina subway in the 1970s when even today it's not at capacity? However, I don't think that you'd find a single person who would argue that either of these overbuilt projects don't benefit the city immensely today.

There's a big difference between making an extra capital investment to future-proof potential versus overbuilding something that carries very high annual operating costs. Spending extra on the Viaduct was primarily a one-time expense, similar to building the Eglinton tunnel to subway specs (which I think they should do).

'Overbuilding' a subway line that won't generate enough ridership doesn't just carry with it a capital cost. You're spending millions every year on labour and maintenance.

 

[js97]

Ah the partisans are in full swing.

'Referendum'? Ford ran on the platform of a subway, not Transit city, that was no secret. I think the election was the referendum.

2nd, the whole density doesn't support is rediculous. When they built the Yonge and Bloor lines, we did NOT have enough densities to support those lines. 1950's? yup, imagine riding the yonge or bloor 'streetcars' right now.

Give it up, of all the bad ideas Ford has, this is not one of them.

If you build it, they will come. Those condos thave have sprouted along the current shepperd line?

too bad Torontonians have all become so partisan.

Matt, have you actually travelled north of Eglinton?

Agincourt Go train is packed in the mornings. The shepperd corridor is as dense as the danforth (if not more considering many rental apartments exist from Victoria Park to Kennedy Rd.

85 Shepperd? It comes as often, if not more than any downtown line.


There is definately a demand that already exists along the corridor.

p.s. Eglinton west needs a subway, Eglinton east? not so much (Huge gap of residents between Laird to pretty much birchmount).

 

[nfitz]

'Referendum'? Ford ran on the platform of a subway, not Transit city, that was no secret. I think the election was the referendum.

If the election was indeed a referendum on Transit City, and Ford was against it, and everyone else left was for it ... then surely subway lost, as more than 50% of the electorate voted against Ford.

As opposed to 2006 when Miller ran on LRT and Pitfield ran on Subway, and Miller got more than 50% of the vote.

 

[drum118]

Ah the partisans are in full swing.

'Referendum'? Ford ran on the platform of a subway, not Transit city, that was no secret. I think the election was the referendum.

2nd, the whole density doesn't support is rediculous. When they built the Yonge and Bloor lines, we did NOT have enough densities to support those lines. 1950's? yup, imagine riding the yonge or bloor 'streetcars' right now.

Give it up, of all the bad ideas Ford has, this is not one of them.

If you build it, they will come. Those condos thave have sprouted along the current shepperd line?

too bad Torontonians have all become so partisan.

Matt, have you actually travelled north of Eglinton?

Agincourt Go train is packed in the mornings. The shepperd corridor is as dense as the danforth (if not more considering many rental apartments exist from Victoria Park to Kennedy Rd.

85 Shepperd? It comes as often, if not more than any downtown line.


There is definately a demand that already exists along the corridor.

p.s. Eglinton west needs a subway, Eglinton east? not so much (Huge gap of residents between Laird to pretty much birchmount).

1953 saw ""9,000"" riders at peak time on the Bloor Streetcar Line while Queen was seeing 7,500. 174 streetcars were been used on Bloor then. Now, does Sheppard have those numbers today?? I know it does not.

Why did Danforth die after the subway was built for that section and the removable of the streetcars??

What would happen to Sheppard if GO was running 15 minute service all day like it should, west of the Agincourt station today??

I do know the northern section of Toronto as I have walked every inch of Sheppard E from Don Mills to Meadowvale shooting over 2,000 photos of every intersection, side streets, bus stops, various driveway and other things. I have video’s of Sheppard for the same area from the front windshield of a car including the section down to Kingston Rd in both direction.

 

[drum118]

November 20, 1910 saw a follow up report prepared by E.L. Cousins, the Assistant City Engineer submitted to council stating that the diagonal lines would not be built without the corresponding roads. Since these roads could not be feasible, he recommended an alternate plan similar to James Forgie of the Jacobs & Davies Company of New York. E.L. Cousins would see 2 east-west lines running along Queen Street and Bloore-Danforth from High Park in the west end to Broadview Avenue in the east where the lines would connect to each other forming a large loop. The Bloore line would see stations at Roncesvalles Avenue, Dovercourt, Bathurst Street, Yonge Street, Sherbourne Avenue, Broadview Avenue.

Based on E.L. Cousins idea for a subway on Bloore Street, Roland Caldwell Harris who became Commissioner of Public Works for Toronto in 1912 when Pubic works was created, cease that idea by incorporating that requirement in the design of the bridge over the Don Valley connecting Bloore Street and Danforth Avenue. There was great opposition to have this lower deck built when the bridge was built from 1913 to 1918. In the end, both Edmund W. Burke the designer of the Prince Edward Viaduct and Commissioner Harris were able to get their way with the building of the lower deck at the time of building the bridge. This foresight would come into play with the building of the Bloor-Danforth Subway in 1960's.

Roland Caldwell Harris was the head of the Toronto Civic Railway for the City of Toronto at the time of the report.

 

[SimonP]

Ah the partisans are in full swing.

The shepperd corridor is as dense as the danforth (if not more considering many rental apartments exist from Victoria Park to Kennedy Rd.

The density map seems to disagree with that.

 

[GraphicMatt]

But facts and figures are irrelevant. Just go with your gut. If I feel like the density along Sheppard is the same as the density along the Danforth, who are you to tell me differently? Some egghead elite?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

A referendum is pointless - transit planning shouldn't be done by a democracy of uninformed voters.

The whole problem is that one mayor dreamed up this half-assed-but-well-intentioned scheme and the new mayor thinks it sucks crap and wants to do an even more-half-assed scheme that may or not be any more intelligent (assuming there is money for it, which there isn't).

My radical idea to have an actual group of planners/transit experts find out what Toronto needs and how to get it done.

All due respect, but I think this is a bad attitude:

If canceling Transit City sets us back 5 years, who the hell cares? The result could be that Toronto finally gets the subways that will be essential to our existence 10 or 20 years from now. Though Ford is too dumb to know it and probably never had the intention in the first place, I believe he has the most future friendly transit platform that we've seen in decades. And in the chance that he decides to rip up the King and Queen streetcar lines to build the DRL, all the better!

So, Toronto is 20 years behind in transit investment and you're all for something that will set it back another 5 years on the chance that it "could be that Toronto finally gets the subways..." I ain't willing to bet on that.

I have a lot of problems with Transit City but there isn't a REAL PLAN to replace it. All Ford has said is, "Subways!" That's the "future friendly platform" you're praising. The only "detail" is that he wants one going to Scarborough. I doubt he as any understanding whatsoever of the relative importance of that line vs a DRL vs extending Yonge etc etc. or that he's putting people in place who really care.

And it's not just 5 years - it's millions of dollars wasted by Mr. End the Gravy Train. they need to sit down, figure out what parts of Transit City DO work, move forward on those and change the plan to build subways where it makes sense (I think Sheppard probably does, FWIW). not just toss the whole thing because "underground trains are less disruptive than streetcars." That's not a platform.

 

[grey]

Multiple LRTs that don't increase speeds very much aren't helping anyone. People are still stuck out in the cold waiting for a streetcar, or LRV if you like. Need I remind you of our climate?

Transit City is based on models in European countries with climates as cold or even colder than ours, so that's really a non-issue. This argument has already been addressed many times. Just to put this point to sleep for good, I'm interested in seeing how much the 510 Spadina or 512 St Clair ridership declines in winter compared to spring/summer (they're not the same as LRT lines, but I'd like to see these stats nevertheless).

You're right this is the first money available in generations. And we should use it to expand a subway system that hasn't grown with the population and has stagnated for years. No wonder the city has so much traffic. LRT will do nothing to improve the subway network and will just add to the the crowding on the subways.

Nevermind the fact that Sheppard already has an unfinished subway line. It's incumbent on us to finish it so it can reach it's full potential.

No. That money can be streched further to help more people in the form of LRT. Simply consider: how many people would be served by a single Sheppard extension to Scarborough? How many people would be served by multiple LRT lines all over the city?

Even the DRL would serve many more people than a Sheppard extension. I don't understand why you're so hung up on Sheppard.

 

[grey]

You know, you can’t blame people for wanting subways.

They're great. It’s just we haven’t had the big picture talk about subsidising their operations when we’re about to run headlong into a demographic crisis across our entire infrastructure induced by age.

Chances are we would have wanted that Mike Harris memorial subway money to subsidise home care and wheel trans and shoring up old age pensions for city residents.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

You know, you can’t blame people for wanting subways.

They're great. It’s just we haven’t had the big picture talk about subsidising their operations when we’re about to run headlong into a demographic crisis across our entire infrastructure induced by age.

Chances are we would have wanted that Mike Harris memorial subway money to subsidise home care and wheel trans and shoring up old age pensions for city residents.

No, but I can blame them for wanting to live in some fantasy land that will most likely never materialize in our lifetimes.

And THAT my friend, deserves a big ol' slap to the back of the head for anyone following that ideology.

 

[CN Tower]

That may be true if it's potential weren't so limited, of if there were $4 billion lying around available for use. The only way this can happen under the current funding is to cancel the subway tunnel being constructed for the Eglinton RT. As Eglinton has a higher potential than Sheppard, then the path forward is clear.

Eglinton should be the priority. I would rather see the Eglinton subway get built than the Scarborough LRT line, given the choice.