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Rail: Ontario-Quebec High Speed Rail Study

Might I suggest

That Highspeed rail is already being built, quietly??? ;)

Take a careful look at GO Kitchner.

This project will:

Provide dedicated tracks to GO, dedicated tracks to CN, and extra trackage either for exclusive use of VIA or for shared use of CN/VIA.

It will also finance the removal of every level crossing through to downtown to Weston, and possibly even to Downtown Brampton or Beyond.

A related project is financing the rail to rail grade separation for the West Toronto (Junction Diamond)

Oh, and on top of that, it seems all but a given that electrification is coming, and if it does, it will extend all the way to K-W.

Hmmmmmmm

Looks like all the prerequisites of highspeed rail to me, except for the rolling stock.

:eek:

Now if you add up the price tag of the various projects, you'll find, a several hundred million dollar down payment on HSR.

*******

Lakeshore isn't as advanced; but beyond the new track already under construction; electrification is already being promised, as is likely needed for the the every 10min. service GO is contemplating in this corridor.

Further if GO makes all that investment it will need to finish adding track to the tune making all of Burlington to Pickering Junction a 4-track line minimum.

That in turn will mandate all the remaining grade separations.

Hmmmm..

Looks like HSR, Smells like HSR, Costs the same as HSR........:D
 
I don't think they'd build high speed rail on the sly, but that information is very interesting. I had no idea they were adding that much track, especially since Kitchener is only supposed to get a few trains a day. If they are, I certainly hope they're building the track or at least the corridor with an eye to future high-speed upgrades (i.e. real, 300 km/h high speed). The Kitchener-Toronto line is a fantastic asset because it's almost perfectly straight. We could build a complete high speed line along that corridor without having to deviate to take out curves.

The European context is very different. There is far more local transit available at the end of your destination (even among the suburban destinations) which means that you don't necessarily need a car when you get there. In our case, we aren't quite there yet (and at the rate we're going it might take a decade or two). Aside from that, in Europe HSR is part of a very built-up rail network of inter-city trains, regional trains, commuter services, etc. We barely have an inter-city service today. I am skeptical about running after we've barely learned to crawl.

I don't think we're really as different as people think. They have downtown stations with good transit access just as we would. They have suburban stations with huge parking lots and minimal transit access, just as we would. We're not that different. This seems to be a popular Canadian (or Toronto) notion that we can't have the best transportation infrastructure right away--we have to slowly progress through less bad options over the course of decades. I don't really understand it, I must admit. It's a lot cheaper to just build the high speed rail right away and be done with it.
 
I didn't say it was

That's not HSR!

I didn't say GO Kitchner was HSR, what I suggested was that all the necessary infrastructure for that segment is in the process of being approved, funded or constructed as we speak.

You would still need to buy the correct rolling stock; run the service express; and indeed many other route segments would still have to be upgraded, but Toronto-Kitchner would be built.

****

And Unimaginative I wasn't exactly suggesting there is a gov't conspiracy to build HSR in secret! LOL

I was suggesting that for a variety of reasons tangentially related to HSR (in that GO's Commuter rails proposals make use of the same corridor); The Government is effectively building the pre-requisite infrastructure for HSR in at least one and maybe 2 corridors.

Though, undoubtedly some of the professional staff and politicians noticed the '2 birds, one stone' opportunity.
 
It's also the prerequisite for running a frequent airport express service, an all-day 15-minute GO service to Georgetown (and beyond), and also VIA Rail service, which needs to pass the GO services (as would some of their longer-distance GO services).

Also, any high-speed rail I've been on, at least while running high-speed - has been on completely separate track - normally new alignment.
 
The only thing you've mentioned that would allude to HSR between Toronto and Kitchener is electrification. Beyond Brampton, there is no mention of any grade separations or allignment changes to allow for high speeds. The extra trackage is dedicated to other services, whereas HSR would most likely require it's own set of dedicated tracks. They may be converted at a later date, but who says GO or CN would want to give up their dedicated tracks? It's wishful thinking for sure, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.
 
Also, any high-speed rail I've been on, at least while running high-speed - has been on completely separate track - normally new alignment.

California has actually decided to build much of its new line along existing rail corridors, at least through the Central Valley where they're straight enough to not cause problems for HST. We have a huge asset in lines like the Weston/Halton/Guelph Subs (ex Grand Trunk) because they're so straight that the same corridor could be used for HSR. You're absolutely right, though, that proper HSR would need a dedicated pair of tracks. The standard of track construction is also very different from freight or commuter rail.

That's why all these suggestions to run semi-HSR on existing upgraded tracks make very little sense. Sharing tracks with freight trains means severe limits on superelevation, and the heavy freights themselves tear up the delicate high-standard tracks. It may seem superficially attractive in the short term, but in the long run it's just not a good idea.
 
The Weston sub .. heck, all the way to Guelph, Kitchener, and St. Marys, is a great alignment ... though then you have to jump down to London ... or go to Sarnia, and that track was ripped out. It's definitely where you'd want to build HS ... not sure how that works if they mess up things through Weston by putting some tracks in a trench, but not others ... that will be expensive to fix one day.

It's Toronto to Ottawa that's difficult. The main CP track coming out of Montreal to Smith Falls is great too ... but it misses both Kingston and Ottawa ... and get's difficult west of Smith Falls.

My gut feel though is this is still years away ...
 
HSR isn't about grade separation, electrification, and number of tracks. It is about the speeds tracks are designed for. None of the plans I have seen indicate that vertical and horizontal curves are being reduced to allow higher speeds. The rate of gradient change in the West Toronto Diamond project and the ones proposed at Strachan and Weston seem higher than anything currently existing on the line. The changes on the line may be able to get VIA services up to speeds seen on the main-line between London and Toronto via Brantford which would be a significant improvement, but there are no signs of HSR on any of these projects.
 
The Guelph Sub is some of the lowest-hanging fruit on the whole VIA network for improvements. West of Georgetown, the route is painfully slow and alarmingly bumpy. The train crawls through Guelph at 5mph, then crawls over the Grand River.

One advantage of high-speed rail is that while it can't handle curves, it can generally handle quite steep grades.
 
Unnecessary at any speed

It is a special kind of boondoggle that even a politician can resist. People who spend other people’s money for a living aren’t in the habit of asking too many questions at the best of times, still less when even the most colossal waste of funds can be justified as “stimulus.†But when a project promises not only the usual thousands of jobs and billions in spinoff benefits, but to save the earth in the bargain, you’d think they’d be falling over themselves to sign on. But some ideas, it seems, are just too insane.

Hence the latest act in the ongoing, 30-year farce known as high-speed rail. The setting this time is Alberta, but the action is always the same. A consulting firm reports, after many months and millions of dollars, that the latest scheme to link city A to city B by high-speed rail—in this case, Calgary and Edmonton—will cost billions of dollars, in fact billions more than was previously estimated. The politicians take a look at the numbers, blanch, and thank the consultants for their work. The project does not proceed. It never does.

On the other hand, it never seems to die, either. Each study merely becomes fodder for the next. This latest report on the merits of a Calgary-Edmonton train à grand richesse is the third in Alberta in the last three decades. There have been 16, at last count, on the Quebec City-to-Windsor corridor, with stops in 1989 (estimated cost of construction: $2.4 billion), 1990 ($5.3 billion), 1991 ($7.1 billion) and 1995 ($18.3 billion, including interest and inflation). Did that eye-popping 1995 report finally bury the idea? Nope. It’s currently being reviewed by a federal-provincial working group.

The dream never dies, because the people pushing high-speed rail are impervious to reality—either because they are dreamers to begin with, or because they have a vested interest in illusions. The Alberta report, for example, put the cost of linking Calgary and Edmonton—at 300 km, barely a quarter the journey from Quebec City to Windsor—at anywhere from $3 billion, for a humble 125-miles-per-hour diesel upgrade, to $20 billion, for the 300 mph, magnetic levitation special. By 2021, its baseline forecast suggests the train could be carrying between 1.5 million and 5.8 million passengers annually, depending on the technology chosen.

That sounds like a lot, until you consider that the same study estimates total passenger trips between the two cities will have grown to 84 million that year. For an investment of $3 billion, the train would have seized a 1.8 per cent market share. But pony up $20 billion, nearly seven times as much, and it rises to 6.9 per cent—and stays there: the proportions for 2051 are broadly similar. Understand: this was widely seen as an endorsement of the idea.

What’s clear from even the optimistic numbers in the report is that a Calgary-Edmonton line would be hopelessly uneconomic. Whatever technology was used, the estimated net present value of passenger revenues from 2011 to 2051 would not even cover the costs of construction, let alone the operating costs. And that’s before the first shovel in the ground, the first strike, and the first cost overrun. What Albertans would be buying, if the history of these sorts of mega-projects is any guide, would be decades of rising subsidies. Under the circumstances, the response of Alberta’s transportation minister was understandable: “No, no, no, no, no. No.â€

It’s at this point that high-speed rail enthusiasts start tapping their foot impatiently. Yes, yes, yes, they say: perhaps it wouldn’t be “profitable.†But what about the environmental benefits? You can’t just measure everything in terms of profit and loss, you know.

No, you can’t. But in fact, there are no environmental benefits to high-speed trains, as such. The tracks are unsightly, they consume large amounts of fossil fuels, and they encourage people to live large distances from each other—sprawl, in other words. And the more you subsidize them, the more you encourage all of these things.

What people mean when they talk about the environmental benefits of high-speed rail are the reductions in environmental harm associated with other modes of transport, notably cars. But these only materialize if large numbers of people do, in fact, leave their cars at home and take the train. There is scant evidence of this. Of those making the journey from Edmonton to Calgary today, fully 91 per cent do so by car. If all goes well, the Alberta study forecast that, decades from now, that number could be reduced all the way to 90 per cent in the $3-billion scenario—88 per cent, if you splashed out for the full $20 billion.
Subsidizing train travel is a peculiarly expensive and ineffective way of getting people out of their cars. Most people won’t find it enough of an incentive to switch. Others would have taken the train anyway, without a subsidy. And even though you are subsidizing a less wasteful mode of transit, the fact remains you are still subsidizing waste.

If you want to make rail travel more attractive, it’s not subsidy you need: it’s entrepreneurs who have risked their own money, lying awake at night thinking of ways to lure people onto their trains. And if you want to encourage people to drive less, there’s a far simpler, more direct route, one that does not expose the taxpayer to huge and unknowable risks. It is to charge the full price of using the highways they drive on—road tolls, in other words.

Rather than subsidize train travel, why not take the subsidy out of driving? Make it more expensive to drive, and I promise you the train will look a lot more appealing in a hurry.
 
Oh my, that article's almost painful to read. Actually, it was painful to read.

High Speed Rail is apparently the less economic and environmentally sustainable choice compared to cars and airplanes? Please, dream on. The author of this article either needs to get their facts straight, or should drop the incredible bias they have.

But, on another note, he mentioned mag lev. Now he might have just stupidly tried to make HSR sound ridiculous or just had his facts wrong, but is that actually the proposal for Calgary-Edmonton and Quebec City-Windsor?
 
High Speed Rail is apparently the less economic and environmentally sustainable choice compared to cars and airplanes? Please, dream on. The author of this article either needs to get their facts straight, or should drop the incredible bias they have.

If you look at the Transport Canada report on the full costs of transportation, inter city rail is never actually cheaper (on a full, social costs basis) than Single occupant vehicles or buses and only rarely cheaper than air travel (see Table 3-16). So he's not exactly making stuff up.

And, ultimately, if environmentalism was the goal wouldn't it be more effective to just buy everyone a hybrid or more efficient vehicle? Why not just tax gas to the point where fuel intensive vehicles become impractical or introduce a range of incentives for fuel efficient vehicles?

But, on another note, he mentioned mag lev. Now he might have just stupidly tried to make HSR sound ridiculous or just had his facts wrong, but is that actually the proposal for Calgary-Edmonton and Quebec City-Windsor?

The recent report to the Alberta government did consider a theoretical mag-lev train traveling at 500+km/h between Calgary and Edmonton. The report concluded that this would attract the most riders versus slower solutions.
 
If there is any point in that article that I can agree with it is the last two paragraphs:

If you want to make rail travel more attractive, it’s not subsidy you need: it’s entrepreneurs who have risked their own money, lying awake at night thinking of ways to lure people onto their trains. And if you want to encourage people to drive less, there’s a far simpler, more direct route, one that does not expose the taxpayer to huge and unknowable risks. It is to charge the full price of using the highways they drive on—road tolls, in other words.

Rather than subsidize train travel, why not take the subsidy out of driving? Make it more expensive to drive, and I promise you the train will look a lot more appealing in a hurry.

If the province sold the 401 between Oshawa and Kingston to the 407 ETR corporation or similar the landscape would look very different. It has always surprised me how many people will come off the 403 onto the QEW to get to Hamilton in order to avoid the 407 tolls. In addition if instead of blanket subsidy to VIA the government changed the landscape of passenger rail by making passenger rail GST and PST free and covered 50% of the trackage costs to all passenger rail operators then VIA or any other possible competing company would have incentive to fill seats yet do so in a fiscally responsible manner. VIA or any competing company would need to prove that its share of the investment makes fiscal sense before investing in it.

I agree in a level of competition to ensure fiscal responsibility but there also needs to be some level of government support to ensure a playing field where the most environmentally responsible form of transport can win.

But in fact, there are no environmental benefits to high-speed trains, as such. The tracks are unsightly, they consume large amounts of fossil fuels, and they encourage people to live large distances from each other—sprawl, in other words.

Nonsense. Whenever you reduce the energy and resource costs used to accomplish the same activity there is environmental benefit. Unsightliness is not a measure of environmental benefit. Roads and air encourage people to travel larger distances as well.
 
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