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Rail: Ontario-Quebec High Speed Rail Study

Perhaps, but Toronto and Montreal are hardly an integrated region. They simply happen to lie in the warmest part of Canada that can be connected linearly. I am willing to bet that each of those respective regions does more trade North-South than with each other. Heck, there are still significant trade barriers between Ontario and Quebec.

This bit triggered my memory back to when I was reading Richard Florida's book, "Who's Your City". His research leads him to believe that Ontario and Quebec, along with the US just across the border, are part of a large "Mega Region", as measured by economic output.

There is a map of all such regions on the book's website:
FIG_3.1_Mega-Regions_of_North_America.gif


There's also an old article in the Globe and Mail related to the Toronto region:
Wake up, Toronto – you're bigger than you think
 
Are you aircrew? Were you sure that's the TCAS? There's a lot of things inside the cockpit that make noise. Usually, it's flashing lights...as in master caution that really get a pilot's attention not necessarily noise per se (unless it's the master caution).

Nope, not aircrew. This is based on very old memories, but I believe I got the impression it was the proximity alarm because the pilot made a comment that it goes off when other aircraft are within X distance - which is not all that close.
 
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Does anybody have stats on the breakdown of these costs? I'd be interested in knowing how much were the costs to build the rail line in a separate corridor, or to simply add a rail or two to the current corridor, or the costs for just the train set. It would be interesting to get a breakdown.

The only "cost" I had seen was from probably 15 years ago - 3 billion - BUT that was for a half-assed (probably quarter-assed) job. Probably understated - even for that. I think that cost was for upgrading level crossings to non-level crossings, replacing track, not a whole new corridor. Not to mention that was the "bid" price, and we all know that those are never the end price. Of course we will never know the final cost if the government does put out a RFP - with an indication that there will be little room for additional costs. i.e. make a decision to go, put out a RFP, if it does not make financial sense - cancel.

I figure that if it is affordable to upgrade the airport - costing 4.2 billion dollars - which was projected even with the old plans to keep ahead of projected capacity until 2025 (there have been cuts since that point - and that does not take into affect that fuel will be too expensive by that time to make that assumption plausible) - that what I had assumed to have been non-affordable high-speed rail - may actually be affordable. Assuming (always a fun thing to do), that if the economy comes back, and fuel prices come back again on an upward trajectory, the rail option can become a reasonable option. Of course if you assume that the airlines can continue to operate with $99 flights to Montreal - then the rail makes less sense. I do believe that the proper management (i.e. Via goodbye), that traffic using rail can be increased substantially. I am not traveling much on business, but if the option is available - I could see myself traveling to Montreal 4 or 5 times a year - and if Chicago was an option 2 times a year. I don't do it anymore, because rail takes too long for the weekend, and air travel for such a short distance - is too much of a pain (and I am one of the most patient air-travelers - as long as I have a beer, and my laptop). When I was living in London, I regularly traveled to Paris (the only thing that kept me sane) - because it was painless (5 minute walk - put-put-put-zooom).
 
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This bit triggered my memory back to when I was reading Richard Florida's book, "Who's Your City". His research leads him to believe that Ontario and Quebec, along with the US just across the border, are part of a large "Mega Region", as measured by economic output.

I've read Richard Florida's musings before. While they are certainly valid, I am still doubtful if this region is as integrated as he portrays it to be. I doubt that the GTA has such strong links with Montreal. Indeed, it might well have better links with Buffalo!

Nope, not aircrew. This is based on very old memories, but I believe I got the impression it was the proximity alarm because the pilot made a comment that it goes off when other aircraft are within X distance - which is not all that close.

Closer separation is usually required in terminal areas. That does not mean the airspace is overly crowded. It simply means you're in tighter airspace where everyone is closer together. Depending on the warning distance that the instrument has been set to, it would probably go off at any major airport. Toronto is certainly not as busy as Chicago, NY, London, Paris...etc.

Toronto is busy in terms of aircraft movements:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_busiest_airports_by_traffic_movements

But not in terms of passengers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_busiest_airports_by_passenger_traffic

So Pearson actually has room to get busier. And higher traffic would probably compel airlines to use larger aircraft improving efficiency. Think Heathrow, JFK, etc.

The only "cost" I had seen was from probably 15 years ago - 3 billion - BUT that was for a half-assed (probably quarter-assed) job. Probably understated - even for that. I think that cost was for upgrading level crossings to non-level crossings, replacing track, not a whole new corridor. Not to mention that was the "bid" price, and we all know that those are never the end price. Of course we will never know the final cost if the government does put out a RFP - with an indication that there will be little room for additional costs. i.e. make a decision to go, put out a RFP, if it does not make financial sense - cancel.

I would argue that this is probably the most likely route and probably the one that offers the best return on capital. Spending 5-6 billion to improve track alignments, upgrading crossings, adding extra track where costs allow would make VIA much more competitive with auto and bus travel. The way I see it, achieving downtown to downtown of 3.5-4 hours would make the train a farely attractive option (so cutting about 40 mins to 1 hr off current travel times). Heck, air travel takes about 3.5 hours from city centre to city centre. This is far more feasible than aiming for a 2.5 hour travel time. And you could still have service to towns along the way.

I figure that if it is affordable to upgrade the airport - costing 4.2 billion dollars - which was projected even with the old plans to keep ahead of projected capacity until 2025 (there have been cuts since that point - and that does not take into affect that fuel will be too expensive by that time to make that assumption plausible) - that what I had assumed to have been non-affordable high-speed rail - may actually be affordable.

4.2 billion is entirely affordable when it's been paid for largely through airport rents, user fees, etc. 20+ billion for high speed rail is not recoverable at all. All those projections of profit on HSR are based on operating costs. There is no hope of any HSR paying back the capital costs. Meanwhile, in Canada airports are making profits for all three levels of government...that should be a clue as to why HSR is politically unfeasible. It's not airline lobby as some have insinuated.

Assuming (always a fun thing to do), that if the economy comes back, and fuel prices come back again on an upward trajectory, the rail option can become a reasonable option. Of course if you assume that the airlines can continue to operate with $99 flights to Montreal - then the rail makes less sense. I do believe that the proper management (i.e. Via goodbye), that traffic using rail can be increased substantially.

What makes flights expensive in Canada is not the $99 fare, its the $100+ in taxes and fees on top of each $200 fare. It is likely that if the aviation industry starts tanking the government will be compelled to reduce those fees and stop making money off airports. We might stop seeing $99 fares. But they really won't rise as much as many think. Fuel still makes up less than half of the direct operating costs for any airline. And higher fuel costs will prompt airlines to use more efficient aircraft finally, keeping fuel costs the same by compensating for higher fuel costs with lower fuel burn. That being said, on purely operating costs, rail would beat air any day.

I am not traveling much on business, but if the option is available - I could see myself traveling to Montreal 4 or 5 times a year - and if Chicago was an option 2 times a year. I don't do it anymore, because rail takes too long for the weekend, and air travel for such a short distance - is too much of a pain (and I am one of the most patient air-travelers - as long as I have a beer, and my laptop). When I was living in London, I regularly traveled to Paris (the only thing that kept me sane) - because it was painless (5 minute walk - put-put-put-zooom).

True enough. And this is exactly why I am a defender of the island airport. It does make flying to Ottawa and Montreal far more convenient....
 
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All I'm about to say has probably been mentioned before.

My guess is that any opportunity for the feds to get involved with this project has been squashed by the appointment of Lisa Raitt to the cabinet. I would strongly doubt that she wouldn't be vocal about such a scheme when she has such close ties with the TPA and Porter.


As for flight prices in this corridor, I think the level of competition is strong enough that even if taxes were lower the base price wouldn't rise. You're already seeing a price war with the 3 airlines operating in this route (to the point where Westjet actually had $1 fares between Toronto and Montreal). Also, another issue is that there are 42 round trip flights between these two cities (10 Porter, 24 AC, 8 WJ), which provides so much more flexibility and options for travellers. The ability to leave/arrive pretty much exactly when you want by plane could never be matched by train. I can't imagine there is a more saturated market than there is in this corridor. It's quite amazing really.
 
You're already seeing a price war with the 3 airlines operating in this route (to the point where Westjet actually had $1 fares between Toronto and Montreal).

They are just learning from Ryan Air, the $1 airfare is better classified as an advertising expense. Basically, you make a few seats available (very few like 1 or 2), advertise it, more people call - some that were looking for the $1 fare will settle on a price for remaining seats. It is a clever gimmick.
 
oh for sure. But it's an indication of how much competition is on this route. Even with the bait and switch tactic, they're still selling fares that are insanely cheap pre-taxes. We're talking cheaper than the bus and definitely cheaper than the train.
 
I've read Richard Florida's musings before. While they are certainly valid, I am still doubtful if this region is as integrated as he portrays it to be. I doubt that the GTA has such strong links with Montreal. Indeed, it might well have better links with Buffalo!
The amount of travel between those cities says otherwise. Like jn_12 said, there are 42 flights between Toronto and Montreal every day. None to Buffalo. Six trains a day to Montreal, one to Buffalo. And there's a similar amount of bus and car traffic on the QEW as the 401.

Also, another issue is that there are 42 round trip flights between these two cities (10 Porter, 24 AC, 8 WJ), which provides so much more flexibility and options for travellers. The ability to leave/arrive pretty much exactly when you want by plane could never be matched by train. I can't imagine there is a more saturated market than there is in this corridor. It's quite amazing really.
That's the whole point. Those 42 flights represent a lot of pent up demand for high speed rail. Most of those would disappear if the HSR option existed. Why do you think that the schedules could never be matched by train? Trains from Paris to Lyon, for example, leave every half an hour.
 
They are just learning from Ryan Air, the $1 airfare is better classified as an advertising expense. Basically, you make a few seats available (very few like 1 or 2), advertise it, more people call - some that were looking for the $1 fare will settle on a price for remaining seats. It is a clever gimmick.

West Jet is overall cheaper then AC, I just booked a flight to visit my mom in Barbados during the holidays - 670 for WJ or 1700 for AC for the same time period. I dont get on how AC can justify there prices sometimes.
 
In general, which route do you think is more plausible for a high speed rail line between Toronto and Montreal?

TORONTO-Oshawa-Peterborough-OTTAWA-Dorval-MONTREAL ~540km
Pro
-Most Direct service to Ottawa
Con
-Little population density
-Expensive to build through the Canadian Sheild

TORONTO-Oshawa-Kingston-OTTAWA-Dorval-MONTREAL ~580km
Pro
-Most population density density
-Existing Right of Way
Con
-Most indirect service including Ottawa

TORONTO-Oshawa-Kingston-Dorval-MONTREAL ~525km
Pro
-Most Direct between Toronto and Montreal
-Existing Right of Way
Con
-Would require transfer to get to Ottawa
 
As for flight prices in this corridor, I think the level of competition is strong enough that even if taxes were lower the base price wouldn't rise. You're already seeing a price war with the 3 airlines operating in this route (to the point where Westjet actually had $1 fares between Toronto and Montreal). Also, another issue is that there are 42 round trip flights between these two cities (10 Porter, 24 AC, 8 WJ), which provides so much more flexibility and options for travellers. The ability to leave/arrive pretty much exactly when you want by plane could never be matched by train. I can't imagine there is a more saturated market than there is in this corridor. It's quite amazing really.

That's the whole point. Those 42 flights represent a lot of pent up demand for high speed rail. Most of those would disappear if the HSR option existed. Why do you think that the schedules could never be matched by train? Trains from Paris to Lyon, for example, leave every half an hour.

42 flights a day represents demand for quick travel. That does not mean it translates into demand for high speed rail per se.It does not mean that they need HSR to get there. It boils down to a simple question. Should the government spend 25 billion in subsidies to move the 4000-5000 or so passengers per day between Toronto and Montreal by rail instead of air. It's a valid question given that the aviation sector is paying its own way and then some.

Comparisons to Europe are not necessarily on an even keel. Europe has far higher gas prices, which prompts drivers to leave their cars at home (more often) for long trips. And incidentally, even in Europe low fare airlines are putting up quite a fight against HSR, which has seen it's modal share drop in recent years despite heavy subsidies. Europe has also developed its local transit infrastructure quite well and done so before the implementation of HSR. If we are to follow their example, then local transit should be priority one, not HSR.

Given that there's probably somewhere in the vicinity of 1 billion dollars (of private funds) worth of air travel in Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal corridor, is it worthwhile to spend 25 billion worth of taxpayer's money to move less passengers than some TTC bus routes? If we are going to do this, then I'd like to see the business case and justification for this and some defence as to the opportunity cost of spending that much on HSR when several other transport priorities are pressing. 25 billion would be about half the price tag of MO2020. I for one, would not be willing to have governments give that up to build an HSR that benefits a few.
 
Dunkalunk, every study has shown that the middle option is definitely the best. That's not to say that the tracks would run along the existing right of way. It would very likely be much easier to develop a new ROW north of the 401.
 
Dunkalunk, every study has shown that the middle option is definitely the best. That's not to say that the tracks would run along the existing right of way. It would very likely be much easier to develop a new ROW north of the 401.

Would it not be cheaper to simply add tracks to the current ROW? I'd love to read more on this. And the added benefit would be that freight rails would receive upgrades such as removing at-grade junctions, etc.
 
Ottawa seems kinda out of the way. Unless a new ROW is built that connects Toronto to Montreal via Ottawa more directly, i.e. skipping Kingston.
 
I actually view a Kingston stop more important than Ottawa - even though Ottawa is significantly larger. Montreal and Toronto would be the primary target markets. Kingston would be the mid-point and collector point (high-speed) for the area surrounding - including Belleville and Brockville - which then could transfer to high-speed rail at Kingston.
 

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