Portlands Energy Centre

[cdl42]

I'm sure there's a huge diffrerence between building a tunnel under an active street in a dense downtown location and building a tunnel in the free land under an existing hydro corridor and burying the lines. It something we should consider; I know that in all of London, only one neighbourhood has hydro pylons (Canning Town).

"It is not as if the plant will be turned off when demand is below peak periods."

I'm not sure about this one, but I wouldn't be surprised. Lakeview for many years only operated during peak demand periods. It'll likely come down to ownership issues rather than demand.

 

[unimaginative2]

That's exactly my thought, cdl. The Front St tunnel is being dug with a tunnel boring machine, weaving around dense underground infrastructure in the downtown area. In the existing hydro corridors, they could simply dig a trench, bury the cable, and fill it in.

This plant will most definitely be turned off during all non-peak periods. This will be particularly true if it isn't used for some kind of district heating or cogeneration. If you look at the output figures of other new gas plants like the TransAlta plant in Sarnia and the Brighton Beach plant in Windor, you will see that they are operated only during peak hours and high summer and winter peaks

 

[billonlogan]

you will see that they are operated only during peak hours and high summer and winter peaks

Exactly, when the Current Hourly Price (HOEP) is at its peak on the open market.

 

[bizorky]

How would it be used to heat buildings in the winter if it off line except for peak periods?

No no...the issue isn't total power in the Ontario grid.

I wasn't thinking the whole Ontario grid. The power generated at PEC would not use the lines from the east which are near capacity during peak periods.

 

[cdl42]

I thought the cogeneration and district heating had been dropped from the plans (along with the solar power units and urban-friendly design)?

 

[unimaginative2]

It obviously would have to be active at least at low levels in order to provide steam, but there don't seem to be any plans to incorporate a cogeneration component, presumably since the city has been so opposed and wouldn't like to give the plant an additional reason to get built.

I know, bizorky, I was agreeing with you. The value is that it relieves congestion on the lines from the east.

 

[bizorky]

Maybe I don't have the most up-to-date material on this project. The information I had mentioned co-generation. It just seems like a rather hefty-sized plant to have sitting idle for a good chunk of time.

 

[unimaginative2]

Initially, they were talking about cogeneration, but when the city started opposing the plant, Enwave's participation pretty much ended.

It is big, but gas plants are relatively cheap to build. The high prices it will get when it does generate should cover the cost.

 

[bizorky]

Such a plant would not have done well this past summer.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I think co-generation is still in the books, but only after 2009. No big deal, since there won't be anything in the area that could be consumers of the steam anyways. Certainly the infrastructure to carry it isn't there.

That said, there is nothing really wrong with natural gas burning power plants, considering that's what most boiler uses anyways. I think TCHC is looking at co-generation for their district energy system, ditto TWRC for West Donlands and East Bayfront.

AoD

 

[bizorky]

^Thanks for the clarification. It would make sense that the cogeneration would only be introduced when there was something around to take advantage of it.

 

[AndrewJM3D]

While I accept the fact that we’re a big city and we need to come up with our own power solutions, I feel that we aren’t being given enough options. I hold the provincial government to blame for this. Not only will we be getting a new large power plant on our waterfront, but our tax dollars will also be thrown into another nuclear reactor. Isn’t it time we said enough is enough, let’s be a leader in our country and start creating more renewable sources of energy until one day we can begin to weed out the old technology of the non-renewable sort. The Portland’s could be home to a massive wind and solar power collection district. The tract of land dividing many of our highways like the 407 could house thousands of wind turbines as could farm fields in the 905. We have the technology and public support to do this, why won’t the government make a change in the right direction?

Oh and I had one last idea, kids are full of energy and seem to love these things, why not hook them up to the grid as well?

www.ci.seattle.wa.us/park...ground.jpg

 

[billonlogan]

The Portland’s could be home to a massive wind and solar power collection district.

Sure, sounds great, but the most you'll get is about 10-megawatt. Not a drop in the bucket for current and future demands in the city.

 

[AndrewJM3D]

The wind turbine at the ex produces up to produces up to 1000 megawatt hours of electricity annually (enough to light 250 homes). Put up a 100 of these and we're talking about powering 25,000 homes.

Denmark generates about 30% of its electricity from wind power, and turbine manufacturing is a top export industry, employing 20,000 people. Denmark's success with wind power is due to the commitment and investment of its citizens.


Why can't we do the same thing?

 

[bizorky]

Isn’t it time we said enough is enough, let’s be a leader in our country and start creating more renewable sources of energy until one day we can begin to weed out the old technology of the non-renewable sort. The Portland’s could be home to a massive wind and solar power collection district.

I agree that we should be mixing up our energy sources, but for the time being we will need nuclear. Ontario simply does not have the means to produce the power it needs today without that option. As billonlogan pointed out, wind generation would not generate anywhere near the power that PEC will. But that is not a reason to avoid windpower.

That being said, now is always a good time to start in the effort to look at more efficient forms of power generation, and improvements in how energy is used.

I have to wonder if part of the reason for going with the higher megawatt project had to do with the unstated belief that people will not really go for conservation in a big way. Interestingly, the Toronto region actually used less energy during the July hot period than the year before - unlike the rest of the province where electricity consumption was up. The message on responsible conservation can sink in; it just has not sunk in enough.