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PM Justin Trudeau's Canada

I'm not sure they would want to come out and assert a right to STRs, that would be interesting politics.

Quebec and Alberta might as they are against everything Ottawa suggests.

Quebec may try making the case that it would hurt tourism in Quebec City and Montreal. Alberta may come back and say that it will hurt tourism in Calgary and Edmonton or that it would impact housing in the oil and gas sector.
 
The Feds also have taxing power, and could simply impose a 100% surtax on STR earnings that would probably render them non-viable.
There are likely many tools in the federal government's toolbox here, especially if they're willing to be creative. For example, I am not terribly familiar with the ins and outs of federal vs. provincial jurisdiction over insurance companies, but would it be possible to forbid providers from insuring buildings used as STRs? Could there also be an avenue available through the regulation of platforms facilitating STRs (e.g., AirBnB, etc.), which presumably falls under federal jurisdiction? Perhaps we could also forbid banks from offering mortgages unless the dwelling is to be used as the owner's primary residence or a long-term rental?

Of course, any effort to clamp down on STRs needs to take rooming houses and their vital role in preventing homelessness into account. I would also expect some provision to allow STRs in areas like cottage country, which, if not carefully outlined, could water down regulations to the point of uselessness.
 
Well yes. It's a known problem. And the Boomers kept voting in governments who kicked the can down the road and are now hoping austerity gets delayed till after they are gone.
That’s just silly. People are busy living their lives and expect their governments to manage government matters. CPP has a surplus due to government and actuary planning and good markets. The future demands of OAS were wholly predictable and should have had the necessary funding. But Keith, what are we doing here? I'm not going to convince you of anything, and I just trigger a dismissal. It's why I begin to so disdain discussion forums, as there's little discussion, rather than win/lose debate and gotchas going on.
 
The future demands of OAS were wholly predictable and should have had the necessary funding.

Yes. And it's a mistake I genuinely hope we learn from in the future. It's why I don't want to see things climate policy or defence renewal or housing getting can kicked. I hope my generation leaves a better world than we received.

But Keith, what are we doing here? I'm not going to convince you of anything, and I just trigger a dismissal. It's why I begin to so disdain discussion forums, as there's little discussion, rather than win/lose debate and gotchas going on.

Apologies if I made you feel this way. I wasn't trying to play gotcha. Just voicing my frustration.
 
That’s just silly. People are busy living their lives and expect their governments to manage government matters. CPP has a surplus due to government and actuary planning and good markets. The future demands of OAS were wholly predictable and should have had the necessary funding. But Keith, what are we doing here? I'm not going to convince you of anything, and I just trigger a dismissal. It's why I begin to so disdain discussion forums, as there's little discussion, rather than win/lose debate and gotchas going on.
CPP is partially funded. OAS is pay as you go, much like Social Security in the US (this has a reserve that Congress has raided and replaced with IOUs). Harper tried to raise the eligibility age to 67, but this was rolled back due to outcry (probably mainly from boomers approaching this age). I think millenials if not Gen X expect OAS age to be increased before it becomes relevant for us. Would not be surprised to see it rise to 70.
 
It would probably be an assertion of POGG powers (Peace, Order and Good Government); keep in mind, provinces govern real estate, but Canada (Federally) imposed restrictions on foreign buyers of same.

The Feds could certainly prohibit foreign ownership of STRs, but I imagine could make an assertion on the broader question. How the provinces would feel about that........is a fair question. On the other hand, virtually every province is claiming a housing crisis, I'm not sure they would want to come out and assert a right to STRs, that would be interesting politics.

The Feds also have taxing power, and could simply impose a 100% surtax on STR earnings that would probably render them non-viable.
I think this would be wildly unpopular with Canadians and would be incredibly disruptive to the real estate markets in areas like Muskoka/etc. Lots of cottages made available as STR for when the owner is not using it.
 
I think this would be wildly unpopular with Canadians, and would be incredibly disruptive to the real estate markets in areas like Muskoka/etc. Lots of cottages made available as STR for when the owner is not using it.

It would certainly be unpopular w/those who have turned cottages into investment properties. I'm ok w/being unpopular w/this group, just as I am w/investors buying unlivable 'boxes' in Toronto and Vancouver, pre-construction for the purpose of flipping, or even renting.

The very act of short-term rental is a disruption of the normative market.

Let be clear, the cottage-ownership class in Muskoka is now quite an elite group and a very small portion of the voting public.

Preventing properties from being used this way would likely force large scale sales, which would depress the market price substantially, and in turn make cottage ownership more accessible to more families.

Even those taking advantage of STRs are generally very well heeled, prices are often quite steep relative to traditional hotels, never mind camping.

Zero sympathy from me for what I see as sociopathic market manipulators who have monopolized properties and inflated the cost of cottaging beyond the typical middle income family.
 
It would probably be an assertion of POGG powers (Peace, Order and Good Government); keep in mind, provinces govern real estate, but Canada (Federally) imposed restrictions on foreign buyers of same.

The Feds could certainly prohibit foreign ownership of STRs, but I imagine could make an assertion on the broader question. How the provinces would feel about that........is a fair question. On the other hand, virtually every province is claiming a housing crisis, I'm not sure they would want to come out and assert a right to STRs, that would be interesting politics.

The Feds also have taxing power, and could simply impose a 100% surtax on STR earnings that would probably render them non-viable.
Any federal exercise of its residual power under Section 91 would be heavily litigated by the provinces. Keep in mind that the section reads:

It shall be lawful for the Queen, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate and House of Commons, to make Laws for the Peace, Order, and good Government of Canada, in relation to all Matters not coming within the Classes of Subjects by this Act assigned exclusively to the Legislatures of the Provinces
(emphasis mine)

They would have to convince the courts that there existed an emergency or some other compelling reason that could not be addressed through existing legislation and powers.

Regardless, it would be a clumsy response that would treat all areas of the country equally. They would be much better advised to stay in their lane and deal with foreign property ownership using the powers they already have.

BTW, any attempt to control or regulate STRs would have nothing to do with boarding/rooming houses. They are a distinct land use class of commercial property with their own rules and limitations
 
It would certainly be unpopular w/those who have turned cottages into investment properties. I'm ok w/being unpopular w/this group, just as I am w/investors buying unlivable 'boxes' in Toronto and Vancouver, pre-construction for the purpose of flipping, or even renting.

The very act of short-term rental is a disruption of the normative market.

Let be clear, the cottage-ownership class in Muskoka is now quite an elite group and a very small portion of the voting public.

Preventing properties from being used this way would likely force large scale sales, which would depress the market price substantially, and in turn make cottage ownership more accessible to more families.

Even those taking advantage of STRs are generally very well heeled, prices are often quite steep relative to traditional hotels, never mind camping.

Zero sympathy from me for what I see as sociopathic market manipulators who have monopolized properties and inflated the cost of cottaging beyond the typical middle income family.

This is some bizarre anti-capitalist fantasy that won't fly with most Canadians. I doubt the "cost of cottaging" makes it to the top ten list of most Canadians, let alone middle income families.

STRs are a problem in cities, where people want cheap housing close to employment. Not many people see STRs in cottage country as a problem. Heck, for those of us who aren't loaded enough to own cottages, STRs actually offer a great way to access cottages for a few days to weeks.
 
Even those taking advantage of STRs are generally very well heeled, prices are often quite steep relative to traditional hotels, never mind camping.
Not sure I agree. STRs in northern Ontario are a more affordable option for vacationing than flying a family just about anywhere.
 
This is some bizarre anti-capitalist fantasy

It is not bizarre, nor anti-capitalist. I earn my money, in a free'ish, market economy. You are welcome to disagree, but can we lose the pejorative hyperbole please.

that won't fly with most Canadians.

I disagree. The vast majority of Canadians neither own nor rent cottages.

8% of all Canadians own a cottage - meaning 92% do not.

Source: https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/1-6-17-...t-2-3-years40-those-looking-buy-plan-rent-out

Of those who own cottages in the Muskokas only 11% are renting them out, 89% are not.

Source: https://cottagelife.com/general/num...remain-low-in-muskoka-according-to-new-study/

I find it improbable that this move would generate a negative public swell of significance.

I doubt the "cost of cottaging" makes it to the top ten list of most Canadians, let alone middle income families.

I didn't suggest that it did. I simply see no reason to exempt cottage properties from the same rule that should be applied to cities.

If you want to run a hotel, run a hotel, but it has to be zoned,. taxed and insured as one.
 

Let be clear, the cottage-ownership class in Muskoka is now quite an elite group and a very small portion of the voting public.

Preventing properties from being used this way would likely force large scale sales, which would depress the market price substantially, and in turn make cottage ownership more accessible to more families.
True for 'new money' ownership but there is a lot of old money family vacation properties. The ones I know I would hardly call "elite". Vacation country extends well beyond Muskoka into areas that are quite accessible by the average, non-elite taxpayer.

People who have gone into significant debt would probably be placed into financial difficulty if their needed rental income were to be taken away. Depressing the market in a significant way might also depress the economies of entire tourist dependent regions. I'm not sure how making cottage ownership more accessible by driving out the old guard for the new ends up solving anything, except perhaps creating a new generation of 'elites'. It's not like it's going to help the housing situation.
 
I'm not sure how making cottage ownership more accessible by driving out the old guard for the new ends up solving anything, except perhaps creating a new generation of 'elites'. It's not like it's going to help the housing situation.

Articulated better than me. But this is why I called it anti-capitalist. It's an idea that seeks nothing more than redistribution of property. It's not actually addressing any real housing concerns.

Urban STRs are problematic because they displace people who need housing, by turning condos into hotel rooms and houses into hostels. I don't see how cottage STRs are problematic when the people renting them are using them for exact purpose intended: recreation. Generally speaking, it's not displacing a potential long term resident.

And as for who makes money off that? I fail to see why this is a public policy concern. It's where this idea becomes anti-capitalist. Investing in cottages is arguably okay because it helps boost tourism in those areas. It makes those areas accessible to a much wider swath of the population, while making someone money and creating jobs for locals. Arguing that cottages should be kept cheap for a handful of mostly upper middle class owners to exclusively use? That's elitist to top it off. So some poor immigrant kid from Toronto (me in the 90s) shouldn't be able to experience "cottaging" because my parents weren't old money enough to buy one when they were cheap?
 
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The vast majority of Canadians neither own nor rent cottages.

8% of all Canadians own a cottage - meaning 92% do not.
I don't think this statistic means much. Ate there millions of people desperate to own a cottage missing out because of STRs? Cause that is happening with housing.

Of those who own cottages in the Muskokas only 11% are renting them out, 89% are not.

And your idea would make this worse. The way to improve accessibility is to make it as easy as possible for more people to rent out their cottages.


Also, a bit strange that you don't want policy to enable home ownership (going by your previous statement about a lack of sympathy for young people who want to own a home) but you care so much about equity for cottage ownership. I think you'll find that the average young person wants to own their home to avoid the insecurities of renting and they'd rather rent that cottage and not have the obligations of ownership.

This has to be the weirdest exchange about housing that I've had with a Boomer in a while.
 
..... It's not actually addressing any real housing concerns.

1) Its about applying a principle consistently; absent evidence that justifies an exception.

Urban STRs are problematic because they displace people who need housing, by turning condos into hotel rooms and houses into hostels. I don't see how cottage STRs are problematic when the people renting them are using them for exact purpose intended: recreation. Generally speaking, it's not displacing a potential long term resident.

Insofar as it drives up the cost of ownership, it naturally displaces some potential residents be they permanent or seasonal. I can assure you there is a shortage of affordable units for resort workers in many areas, including the muskokas as units that used to be rentable for a season have become completely unaffordable. Previously one might get space, personal or shared, for as little as $800 per month just a few years ago. That price point is now is now 2-days in STR, or sometimes 1.

And as for who makes money off that? I fail to see why this is a public policy concern.

Your failure to understand is a problem, but it does not make the policy proposal anti-capitalist.

Investing in cottages is arguably okay because it helps boost tourism in those areas.

This presumes a significant net gain in total population, on a full-year basis, with the same number of buildings; while excluding the displacement effect on locals, seasonal, low-wage workers and others.

It also doesn't generate the investment in tourist amenities that hotels/resorts create; while diminishing the economic return of same.

It makes those areas accessible to a much wider swath of the population, while making someone money and creating jobs for locals.

Evidence, please. I do not agree w/this conclusion in the absence of evidence that validates it.

Arguing that cottages should be kept cheap for a handful of mostly upper middle class owners to exclusively use?

That's not what I'm arguing. Its disingenuous to suggest as much.

The knock-down pressure of lower prices has multiple side effects; it generates more hotel rooms for one; it also generates more campgrounds and other facilities.

That's elitist to top it off. So some poor immigrant kid from Toronto (me in the 90s) shouldn't be able to experience "cottaging" because my parents weren't old money enough to buy one when they were cheap?

This piece will suggest to you that immigrants are currently a rare sight in cottage country and even less likely to be owners. Making the price point more accessible by booting investors would likely increase diversity in cottage country, not the other way around.


I would point out that cottage country used to be accessible to lower-middle income parents like mine.

Neither of my parents ever owned a house. But while together, they were able to afford a cottage in the Kawarthas.

Also, scandinavia shows some of the highest ownership of recreational/cottage properties in the world.

Its part of a fairer, more equal society.,

It also means restrictions on what those properties can be.

Which is to say, when I was a child, cottages rarely had indoor plumbing, you used an outhouse. There was no such thing as heating or air conditioning (for the most part). A cottage was a modest structure in size that providing you a roof, walls and windows, and maybe a woodburning stove for warmth and cooking. It provided highly affordable access to the outdoors.

The STR culture has been part of the movie make these places 4-seasons and lux, causing them to be priced well beyond the poor irrespective of income.

A quick search of Airbnb shows a median price of ~$400 per night for cottages in the Muskokas. Not too many low-folks snapping that up.
 

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