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PM Justin Trudeau's Canada

Can we drop religion from the discussion here please? There is no logic to any religious discussion and it isn't constructive in any way. Let's also drop the accusations of racism and name-calling. Those here accusing others of racism are in fact showing themselves to be intolerant. Again, not constructive.

Thank you.
 
Unfortunately I don't think we can totally cut religion from the discussion. The middle east is in the middle of their own dark ages, and like ours, their religious leaders have an inordinate amount of political power. Until they can separate their religion from their political processes it's part of the discussion.

Your last statement (which I agree with) is also why I disagree with your first statement. To a large extent the problems in the middle east are the result of western interference. I think we have a moral obligation to help these people, and I don't think what humanitarian aid we can provide will even scratch the surface of what's required when you have 6 million people displaced. I also don't think it's right to turn our backs on Europe who have no choice but to accept this mass migration.

One doesn't have to go back centuries to the Dark Ages, merely back a few years to recent memory, to watch Christians murdering others in the name of religion. And the muslim demagogues are not alone spreading hate in the world today, ranging from Hindu extremists to elements of the Christian Right in the U.S. I do agree with you, however, that religion is often (mis)used to spread hate and violence, and that is happening to a large degree right now in the Middle East.

Agreed on the refugees.
 
Thank you.

True, however, it should apply to both camps: in condemning the terrorists, we should also talk about the extremists only, not "Muslim" in general, or how inferior/backward their religion is.

I applaud Nfitz to provide a different view. There have been an excessive number of school shooting in the US this year, most if not all done by white Christians, and nobody seems to say "this is because of the evil nature of Christianity".
 
I am impartial about the refugee issue, however, whether we take them or not has absolutely nothing to do with the Paris attack. All the fear mongering is more about xenophobic than anything else (often safety etc.). Therefore I decide to support taking in the 25000 refugees just to irk them.

Security concerns surrounding the refugees are legitimate, clearly. It is irresponsible to ignore this. Open borders only facilitate the mobility of terrorists and this is already well established.

Nevertheless, Europe cannot sustain these levels of migrants and it simply isn't constructive to drown yourself in order to help another that is drowning! Again, the global community needs to intervene in the region to bring stability and aide. It is the only logical and sustainable option available, as monumentally difficult as it may be.

ISIS emerged precisely because America decided that Saddam "has to go" (and we all know the previous Al Qaeda threat is nothing but Washington's creation too). More military attack isn't the solution.

I agree with your first statement, however to conflate these two issues (invasion of Iraq under Saddam with the invasion of ISIS) would be a grave mistake. The invasion of Iraq was a phoney war trumped up for nefarious political and economic motivations. This is not the case with ISIS. ISIS may be a crisis of our creating but it is still a crisis, and a legitimate one. Our abstaining from a concerted military option speaks more to our inability to move on from past mistakes than it does to any inclination to repeat them. In the meantime this equivocation has allowed ISIS to grow and to further destabilize the region, and it now risks destabilizing Europe and other zones beyond its territory. Potentially North America?

Sincerely though, If somebody has an idea how to defeat ISIS without military intervention I'd like to discuss it.

Who are we, Canada, a middle power at most, to say "we have this and that obligation"? If more attacks like the Ottawa incidents happen, we will have nobody to blame but ourselves.

We are a 'middle power' with a long history of responsible participation in global conflicts.

Ksun, no nation exists in a vacuum. Canada has a number of very important economic and political/strategic relationships that must be considered when weighing options, NATO included.... but let's be honest that this is not completely altruistic on our part. Participating in global events means we get to have a voice, that the Canadian perspective is relevant and 'at the table'. As a 'middle power' we can be a moderating influence. As a 'middle power' we need to respect these alliances for our own security.

ISIS may be evil, but why do we think the attack happens in France, not Switzerland or Portugal? Because it meddles.

It is far more complicated than this... and remember, France did not join America's 'coalition of the willing' in Iraq. This sort of contradicts your hypothesis, no?

In the end you make the error of ascribing too much logic or rationale to ISIS. They are looking to further their position in any way possible, plain and simple. They are driven by economics and power, using hatred and religiosity as just one more weapon in their recruitment arsenal.

The question of 'Why France?' is a good one though. It may just boil down to the fact that France makes sense. France has the largest population of muslims in Europe, some of whom are marginalized and disenchanted. The open borders of Europe have allowed easy access to them and easy mobility. The attacks on France also provide good symbolic value. The french values of 'laicite' are manipulated by ISIS as propaganda, as proof of an ongoing western crusade against muslims.
 
True, however, it should apply to both camps: in condemning the terrorists, we should also talk about the extremists only, not "Muslim" in general, or how inferior/backward their religion is.

I applaud Nfitz to provide a different view. There have been an excessive number of school shooting in the US this year, most if not all done by white Christians, and nobody seems to say "this is because of the evil nature of Christianity".

I disagree. There is a very profound discussion within America about gun control, the religious right, the interpretation of rights and freedoms etc.

You're right though in that we shouldn't equate ISIS with all muslims. We have to be careful not to buy into their own propaganda.
 
This is not something I say very often, but ksun is right. The "profound debate" of which you speak, Tewder, is sadly limited in its scope -- when a gunman fires on a crowd in the U.S. or attacks a school or church, the overwhelming knee-jerk reaction among the media, the politicians and the public, is to describe it as the actions of one deranged individual, rarely to discuss it in terms of terrorism, and with a surprising reluctance to tie it to the political, racial and religious discourse in the U.S., whereas deadly attacks by deranged Muslim extremists are commonly attributed to Islam and Muslims generally.
 
kady o'malley ‏@kady 2m2 minutes ago
News of a not unexpected sort: The government has officially served notice to the Supreme Court that it is dropping its niqab ban appeal.

To the surprise of no one, the new government is dropping the appeal of the niqab ruling.
 
This is not something I say very often, but ksun is right. The "profound debate" of which you speak, Tewder, is sadly limited in its scope -- when a gunman fires on a crowd in the U.S. or attacks a school or church, the overwhelming knee-jerk reaction among the media, the politicians and the public, is to describe it as the actions of one deranged individual, rarely to discuss it in terms of terrorism, and with a surprising reluctance to tie it to the political, racial and religious discourse in the U.S., whereas deadly attacks by deranged Muslim extremists are commonly attributed to Islam and Muslims generally.

I didn't disagree with your last point Skeezix. There is definitely a segment of the population that jumps to this conclusion, and it is wrong. I was merely countering the idea that our social discourse offers no alternative to this. Turn off Fox and you will find many individuals, groups and media outlets parsing this issue from all different perspectives.
 
I didn't disagree with your last point Skeezix. There is definitely a segment of the population that jumps to this conclusion, and it is wrong. I was merely countering the idea that our social discourse offers no alternative to this. Turn off Fox and you will find many individuals, groups and media outlets parsing this issue from all different perspectives.

I don't watch Fox. I'm guessing you mean that generally. :)

There are numerous people in the U.S. looking at the root causes of gun violence. I never said otherwise, merely that that discussion is limited in its reach. The overwhelming majority response is to not dig too deep, and the discourse that does exist is swamped by a combination of indifference, denial and outright hostility. There is very little stamina for, or tolerance of, any probing of the gun culture or the Christian right. And the media, well beyond Fox, pays lip service to those who question the consensus assumptions, but mainly falls in line. ksun is correct on that point -- there is a massive double standard between how we in North America portray and consider deranged white Christians who kill versus deranged non-white non-Christians (esp. Muslims) who kill. On that last point, I think we might all agree.
 
It's not clear to me how on one hand we can refer to IS as being evil and scourge of the earth, while at the same time resist efforts to help those who are fleeing the IS terror. If Canada needs to step up and accept a role in this fight, then we need to do so with respect to the refugees as well. This talk of stabilizing the situation so that they can stay in Syria is nonsense. Personally, I think 25,000 refugees is the least we can do. My family escaped pogroms about 100 years ago in what is today Belarus, but was then the Russian Empire, at a time when Jews were considered everything from diabolical to spreaders of disease (I'm not actually Jewish, given intermarriages since then). Let's not repeat the same of the St. Louis.
 
True, however, it should apply to both camps: in condemning the terrorists, we should also talk about the extremists only, not "Muslim" in general, or how inferior/backward their religion is.

I applaud Nfitz to provide a different view. There have been an excessive number of school shooting in the US this year, most if not all done by white Christians, and nobody seems to say "this is because of the evil nature of Christianity".


That's true. But the school shooters aren't shooting up schools in the name of Jesus or Christianity like the Muslim terrorists who kill in the name of Islam. 'Allahu Akbar' (God is great in Arabic) Islam is a problem because it is an extremist ideology. There are certain ancient taboos in Islam. You break one and according to the religion, they have an obligation to kill you. It has a strict set of rules to follow to be considered Islamic. Some of these rules include killing those who don't believe in Islam.
 
It's not clear to me how on one hand we can refer to IS as being evil and scourge of the earth, while at the same time resist efforts to help those who are fleeing the IS terror.

It isn't a sustainable option. There are some 6million people displaced. Are we to take them all in? Pay for all of them? Do we offer the same to all refugees around the world? The better option is to address the issues causing this migration crisis to start with.

... and i'm not suggesting we don't help refugees. We should send/fund resources to deal with them in the region, i.e. humanitarian aid, military protection, etc. Admitting 20k individuals makes us feel good but it doesn't address the problem.
 
It isn't a sustainable option. There are some 6million people displaced. Are we to take them all in? Pay for all of them? Do we offer the same to all refugees around the world? The better option is to address the issues causing this migration crisis to start with.

... and i'm not suggesting we don't help refugees. We should send/fund resources to deal with them in the region, i.e. humanitarian aid, military protection, etc. Admitting 20k individuals makes us feel good but it doesn't address the problem.

Because spending billions on a war that isn't making a dent is sustainable? The least we can do is open our country to those seeking refuge, as we have historically done. Providing aid to a politically unstable region is nearly impossible, especially when there are so many competing forces working to gain control of Syria.

My family came here to escape a dictatorship in Portugal and have been contributing to the success of this country for decades. They weren't a drain on Canada, they weren't criminals, they weren't a burden. What makes you think Syrian refugees won't be as successful?
 
My family came here to escape a dictatorship in Portugal and have been contributing to the success of this country for decades. They weren't a drain on Canada, they weren't criminals, they weren't a burden. What makes you think Syrian refugees won't be as successful?

Here we go, please tell me where I made such a claim.

Because spending billions on a war that isn't making a dent is sustainable? The least we can do is open our country to those seeking refuge, as we have historically done. Providing aid to a politically unstable region is nearly impossible, especially when there are so many competing forces working to gain control of Syria.

So you suggest we do nothing? No opposition to ISIS? No humanitarian aid? Taking in 20K refugees will resolve this problem? When do we stop or do we? Canada should open its doors indefinitely? You better be prepared and willing to do this if you have no solutions.
 

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