Pickering Airport (Transport Canada/GTAA, Proposed)

[TrickyRicky]

^I don't know much about airports but why would Waterloo and Hamilton building out their capacities impact Pickering? You mean as cargo airports? Why would I go to Waterloo to use the airport there? How would Hamilton and Waterloo serve the Eastern GTA?

 

[jcam]

The argument is that there isn't a critical mass of people east of Pickering that would draw to a large airport. There are many more people west of Pearson, so developing airports there would draw people from Pearson as options grew, thereby taking some pressure off Pearson's capacity. Its notes a small, Hamilton-ish sized Pickering wouldn't be needed until the mid to late 2030s at the earliest.

 

[TOareaFan]

The argument is that there isn't a critical mass of people east of Pickering that would draw to a large airport. There are many more people west of Pearson, so developing airports there would draw people from Pearson as options grew, thereby taking some pressure off Pearson's capacity. Its notes a small, Hamilton-ish sized Pickering wouldn't be needed until the mid to late 2030s at the earliest.

We never like to talk publicly about the real issues....isn't the real reason that people at Pearson want Pickering built as their relief airfield all about their expectation that they would run Pickering?

Hamilton has lots of capacity to add more flights...lots...but it is run by someone other than GTAA and that does not sit so well with them.

 

[Dan416]

Why isn't the Hamilton airport run by the GTAA? And why isn't the island airport run by the GTAA?

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

We never like to talk publicly about the real issues....isn't the real reason that people at Pearson want Pickering built as their relief airfield all about their expectation that they would run Pickering?

Hamilton has lots of capacity to add more flights...lots...but it is run by someone other than GTAA and that does not sit so well with them.

Interesting angle. We have discussed in the pearson threads that there is a need to off load some of the lower density routes (smaller aircraft) in order to, and to pick up higher density ( larger aircraft) routes if pearson is going to realize it's ambitions of becoming an international hub.

You never want to send your customers away to your competitors and so yes they would like to operate a smaller domestic/charter airport thus offering airlines choices.

The island airport should be run by the Gtaa or metrolinx at minimum. I can see the argument for Hamilton as well

 

[MrsNesbitt]

Firstly, I want to say unequivocally that in no way is the construction of Pickering Airport a foregone conclusion. Both here in Pickering as well as around Ontario there are a lot of very good and very hard-working people who have laboured tirelessly to demonstrate how unnecessary a Pickering Airport is and how devastating it would be. Furthermore, the federal government only announced the re-start of the airport project in June 2013, and since then a lot has changed: foremost, Jim Flaherty, who was the project's greatest pusher amongst the Harper government, has since passed away. The government has made no more large-scale announcements since then, and I think that continuing pressure on them and our local/provincial politicians to oppose Pickering will work. I can't see Wynne being the most receptive to the idea, and moreover, that tactic worked for People Over Planes back in the 1970s against the federal government which took it upon itself to do the dirty work of expropriation in the first place.

As you can tell, I'm in staunch opposition to a Pickering Airport. However, under the thought-experiment where all efforts against it failed and it proceeded to be built, I would foresee:

i. Highway links to the 407 / 407 East. Potentially, following the model of the 409 at Pearson, an entirely new connector highway could be built off of the 407 to head northwards to the airport proper. GO bus service to across the GTA would flow in this way, as would (potentially) a Viva extension, although Viva could also run along Highway 7 into Pickering, and of course would hit some jurisdictional issues with DRT inside Pickering.

ii. Either GO service to the airport via the CP Havelock Subdivision as part of a Peterborough Line, or a more UPX-like service (Union-Pickering Express, as stated above...heh) operating via the Don Branch down to Union Station without serving as part of a continuous line to Peterborough. Would be interesting to see if Scarborough would pull a Weston and demand local stops on such a line.

However, I stress again, that a Pickering Airport is not at all a solution to what ails us in the GTHA. Until we see Pearson hitting its capacity wall, which is WAY out there still, and full use of the Hamilton, Waterloo, and island airports (all of which have far better network connectivity than Pickering, especially given the coming of GO RER), the Federal Lands in Pickering need to remain green.

Also, one last point: I believe we already have a Pickering Airport thread, though pushed back a few pages?

 

[gweed123]

Convert the SRT ROW to run GO REX trains, extend GO REX along the planned SLRT alignment to Malvern, then hop over the CP line to Seaton, then veer north towards the airport. This way you can have a GO REX line that runs from Pearson to Union to the Pickering Airport. If the airport doesn't materialize, then at least you have a new GO REX line for northern Scarborough, Malvern, and northern Pickering.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

The government has made no more large-scale announcements since then...

On August 21, the feds met with community groups, regional and municipal leaders and stakeholders. I think this is evidence enough that it is moving forward (even if there is opposition at public or provincial level).

ii. Either GO service to the airport via the CP Havelock Subdivision as part of a Peterborough Line, or a more UPX-like service (Union-Pickering Express, as stated above...heh) operating via the Don Branch down to Union Station without serving as part of a continuous line to Peterborough. Would be interesting to see if Scarborough would pull a Weston and demand local stops on such a line.

Stops that intersect east-west rapid transit would make sense; Eglinton and Sheppard could be the two stops. Bloor is too far and unnecessary of a connection. Anything more than that would certainly be "pulling a Weston".

Also, one last point: I believe we already have a Pickering Airport thread, though pushed back a few pages?

I searched and nothing came up. Besides, I wanted to focus on the transportation infrastructure aspect anyway, so while you staunchly oppose it, thank you for contributing your transit ideas and keeping it on track

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Convert the SRT ROW to run GO REX trains, extend GO REX along the planned SLRT alignment to Malvern, then hop over the CP line to Seaton, then veer north towards the airport. This way you can have a GO REX line that runs from Pearson to Union to the Pickering Airport. If the airport doesn't materialize, then at least you have a new GO REX line for northern Scarborough, Malvern, and northern Pickering.

A) You're talking about putting new heavy rail through an established residential community. I dunno how well that would go over.

B) Is this assuming the Scarborough LRT is dead? I'm not sure that's a safe bet.

C) Why are we taking over the planned Malvern extension ROW? If Metrolinx has planned it for light rail, I don't think it would be right to deviate from that.

 

[gweed123]

A) You're talking about putting new heavy rail through an established residential community. I dunno how well that would go over.

It would be Metrolinx EMU stock, which will probably be closer to a subway train than a GO train.

B) Is this assuming the Scarborough LRT is dead? I'm not sure that's a safe bet.

Neither the subway or the LRT option is secured at this point. I'm merely proposing an alternative that has the benefits of both. Direct route to downtown, eliminates the transfer at Kennedy, similar stops to the SRT, presumably a very similar price tag to the LRT.

C) Why are we taking over the planned Malvern extension ROW? If Metrolinx has planned it for light rail, I don't think it would be right to deviate from that.

It would be a replacement for LRT. And if the Scarborough Subway goes ahead, I don't think we'll be seeing LRT on the corridor to Malvern any time soon.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

On August 21, the feds met with community groups, regional and municipal leaders and stakeholders. I think this is evidence enough that it is moving forward (even if there is opposition at public or provincial level).

Stops that intersect east-west rapid transit would make sense; Eglinton and Sheppard could be the two stops. Bloor is too far and unnecessary of a connection. Anything more than that would certainly be "pulling a Weston".

I searched and nothing came up. Besides, I wanted to focus on the transportation infrastructure aspect anyway, so while you staunchly oppose it, thank you for contributing your transit ideas and keeping it on track

Stops at Eglinton and Sheppard might be good for a GO RER service along the CP mainline. The Eglinton stop would intersect close to Flemingdon Park, giving a low-income community a strong GO RER connection, and could connect to the nearest Crosstown stop easily. Where the CP tracks intersect Sheppard is fairly close to the existing Agincourt GO - we could have a mobility hub there. If we went the route of using the Havelock Sub straight from the Agincourt Yard to the airport lands, a stop serving Morningside Heights, Malvern, and potentially southeastern Markham could be built where the tracks intersect Tapscott, or alternately further north near Steeles to capture more Markham and potentially northern Pickering traffic. If the trains follow the Belleville Sub east from the yard and then a new connector north to the Havelock Sub and airport is built, there's a lot of potential for more centrally-located stops in Malvern and/or Morningside Heights, but the potential to serve southern Markham is gone.

Given the usefulness of CP's mainlines through Toronto, especially Scarborough, to serve a lot of transit-deprived neighbourhoods with high-quality regional rail, I'd very much like to see (even in the ideal case wherein the Pickering Airport is cancelled forever) regular GO RER service along the Belleville or Havelock Subdivisions as opposed to a more UPX-like rail service.

Side note regarding the federal government's August 21 meeting: the Feds hold similar meetings somewhat regularly in Pickering. Considering the "residents, community groups, and stakeholders" they invite are only ever similarly pro-airport groups (Land over Landings, the only group in Pickering solely dedicated to the airport issue, in their case opposing it, has been consistently left out for example) I wouldn't lend those photo ops much credence.

 

[robmausser]

Convert the SRT ROW to run GO REX trains, extend GO REX along the planned SLRT alignment to Malvern, then hop over the CP line to Seaton, then veer north towards the airport. This way you can have a GO REX line that runs from Pearson to Union to the Pickering Airport. If the airport doesn't materialize, then at least you have a new GO REX line for northern Scarborough, Malvern, and northern Pickering.

I always have thought the best option would be to turn the Stouffville line into "GO REX" with European-type EMU's (like the Talent 2 http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/1/9/7/6197.1284931994.jpg) which is fairly "light" heavy-rail, so perhaps community opposition would be minimal as long as you convinced them it wasn't a huge noisy GO Bi-Level. You would need an exception from the FRA rules, but GO was investigating doing this as long as the trains stopped at Kennedy. (You wouldnt get an exception to Union, simply too much rail traffic)

Then, add a fork at the SRT at Ellesmere and have every other train run along the SRT. I am sure a rebuilt or reinforced and modified elevated tramway would be needed, but then you would have one line that services the whole scarborough area. (You could scrap the subway plan too)

Interesting idea having it continue along to Pickering Airport.

Perhaps it could be built along the ravine thats in that area, with a stop at Centennial College and then up to Malvern Town Center and continue along the CP corridor.

All speculation, I know nothing about the area.

One line to rule them all!

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Stops at Eglinton and Sheppard might be good for a GO RER service along the CP mainline. The Eglinton stop would intersect close to Flemingdon Park, giving a low-income community a strong GO RER connection, and could connect to the nearest Crosstown stop easily. Where the CP tracks intersect Sheppard is fairly close to the existing Agincourt GO - we could have a mobility hub there. If we went the route of using the Havelock Sub straight from the Agincourt Yard to the airport lands, a stop serving Morningside Heights, Malvern, and potentially southeastern Markham could be built where the tracks intersect Tapscott, or alternately further north near Steeles to capture more Markham and potentially northern Pickering traffic. If the trains follow the Belleville Sub east from the yard and then a new connector north to the Havelock Sub and airport is built, there's a lot of potential for more centrally-located stops in Malvern and/or Morningside Heights, but the potential to serve southern Markham is gone.

Given the usefulness of CP's mainlines through Toronto, especially Scarborough, to serve a lot of transit-deprived neighbourhoods with high-quality regional rail, I'd very much like to see (even in the ideal case wherein the Pickering Airport is cancelled forever) regular GO RER service along the Belleville or Havelock Subdivisions as opposed to a more UPX-like rail service.

Agree with all of your GO RER points, but I think the time lost at Eglinton and Sheppard is worth the extra convenience, increased ridership, and extra UP amenities at what would be a GO station.

 

[gweed123]

I always have thought the best option would be to turn the Stouffville line into "GO REX" with European-type EMU's (like the Talent 2 http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/1/9/7/6197.1284931994.jpg) which is fairly "light" heavy-rail, so perhaps community opposition would be minimal as long as you convinced them it wasn't a huge noisy GO Bi-Level. You would need an exception from the FRA rules, but GO was investigating doing this as long as the trains stopped at Kennedy. (You wouldnt get an exception to Union, simply too much rail traffic)

Then, add a fork at the SRT at Ellesmere and have every other train run along the SRT. I am sure a rebuilt or reinforced and modified elevated tramway would be needed, but then you would have one line that services the whole scarborough area. (You could scrap the subway plan too)

Interesting idea having it continue along to Pickering Airport.

Perhaps it could be built along the ravine thats in that area, with a stop at Centennial College and then up to Malvern Town Center and continue along the CP corridor.

All speculation, I know nothing about the area.

One line to rule them all!

That's pretty much the idea! My most recent map has that configuration on it. It's the entire GTHA, but for the purposes of this discussion the Scarborough/Pickering part of it is sufficient. Also note that the line stops in Seaton, for this map I wasn't assuming the construction of the Pickering Airport, but the line could be extended from Seaton to Pickering Airport.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43869799/GTA System Map v5.jpg

 

[kEiThZ]

I'm still opposed to the Pickering Airport. But the GTAA's subsidy to Buttonville (which came about when Pearson banned general aviation) came to an end, and it's now going to be redeveloped. With Transport Canada owning so much land (and now accelerating its demolition and land clearances there), it's almost inevitable.

But Pickering will be (in more ways than one) a Mirabel. At least there's no short-to-medium plans for it to handle major commercial passenger flights. There will be some cargo operations and FBOs (though UPS and FedEx are both comfortably based at Pearson).

All that will be needed are local bus services to the scattered employment areas, likely from the east end of the Highway 7 Viva Route, and from Pickering GO Station.

It's a scalable proposal. So it won't be a Mirabel. At first, it will just be another Buttonville. If traffic warrants it, they can scale it up to something bigger.