Pauline Marois, the Québec citizenship law project and reasonable accommodations

[DaimonAugustus]

If multiculturalism works, why not use it, right ? Indeed. Except for one tiny detail. It would work if Québec were an independant country where it is clear and established that french is the common and "normal" language of the public space. Unfortunately, things are not that way.

We have 300 million neigboors who happen to speak the current lingua franca as their mother tongue. Because of some historic events (most of them illegitimate and unhappy) that happened long ago, we happen to be a member province of a federation named Canada where the majority speaks english. It is pretended that we have two official and equal languages in the federation. The truth is that the only ones to be really billingual are those who inhabit our province. Billingualism does not really exist outside Québec. Result, french is just another language. Therefore, if we let things go, Québec will slowly but certainly become english, for the simple reason that immigrants are naturally attracted by english. It's the language that anybody can gibber. The language of power and money. And you think multiculturalism will work in that context ? Pious dreams.

I like my culture and I like my language. It can change and evolve and become richer of new elements. That's perfect. But as long as we stay in Canada, multiculturalism won't be about change and evolution, but about death. So we need legislative dams to protect ourselves from disappearance.

So you want people to assimilate. Sounds simple enough. But how would you go about doing this? Who would define what constitutes a Quebecois and what constitutes a non-Quebecois? What would be done to ensure assimilation? Would you give the state power to revoke and grant rights to individuals based on some definition of whatever it is they feel constitutes French Canadian culture? To what extent? And what about those that deviate from social norms but aren't immigrants? Clearly they would have to be dealt with too.

1-Assimilation is a "natural" process. Something that happens more or less rapidly, but that is usually history after a maximum of four generations. We can't magically assimilate immigrants with the use of a wand. But we can adopt legal measure that will favor the process of assimilation.

2- No legal text can define what a Québécois is. Therefore no law will pronounce itself on a precise and rigid definition. That would indeed be fascism. However, the law can define a number of non-negotiable elements, such as language.

3- Rights that are acquired or granted cannot be revoked, except in the case where someone commits serious crimes (murder, fraud, high treason etc...). So this law project is about defining on what criteria do we base ourselves to grant the status (and the rights of) of citizens to newcomers, including newcomers that come from other provinces of the Canadian Federation.

If you are upset that immigrants of today do not take part in Quebec culture, fine. But don't expect the government or any other authority to do something about it. Go out and promote your culture. Stop worrying about forcing it upon others.

The government of Québec has been promoting our culture for the last 47 years. It is considered good and normal around here. It is also the Ministry of Immigration of Québec's top most duty to recruit immigrants and ensure that they integrate themselves properly into Québec's society, for both the immigrants and the natives greater good.

Who, tell me, would want a country where people don't understand each other ?

Last but not least : potatoes and tomatoes are the pride of the American Continent. Best vegetables in the world. I would never give that away to another continent !

 

[Hydrogen]

If multiculturalism works, why not use it, right ? Indeed. Except for one tiny detail. It would work if Québec were an independant country where it is clear and established that french is the common and "normal" language of the public space. Unfortunately, things are not that way.

We have 300 million neigboors who happen to speak the current lingua franca as their mother tongue.

Why not go with the flow? You expect everyone else to. Why not you?


Who's to say what would happen in an independent Quebec. It isn't independent, is it? I suppose some in that province blame immigration for that. A seperate Quebec would still would be surrounded by over 325 million people speaking english as a first or second language, and hundreds of millions of second language english speakers around the world.


"Neighboors." Yeah, sure.

 

[adma]

I like my culture and I like my language. It can change and evolve and become richer of new elements. That's perfect. But as long as we stay in Canada, multiculturalism won't be about change and evolution, but about death. So we need legislative dams to protect ourselves from disappearance.

Ah, but remember: you're speaking to a Toronto-based forum here. And you can't get any more multicultural than Toronto.

In fact, compare Toronto today to Toronto a scant quarter century ago. Perhaps an argument may be made that the evidently fading strain of Anglo-Euro-Canadian Torontonians needs a municipal version of a legislative dam to protect *itself* from disappearance? After all, they may be disappearing even more thoroughly here than "your" culture and "your" language is where you're coming from.

Trouble is, who'd be the spokespersons for that kind of argument? As I see it, they'd wind up being a better argument for their own disappearance, in the process of arguing against the same. Even the conservative-yahoo element on Council (Rob Ford et al) tends to take more of a "live and let live" attitude t/w such issues--or at least, their presumed opposition to multiculturalism might be based more on legislative than cultural grounds.

Look kiddo; let's take a cue from the Rob Fords of this world. Rather than relying on legislative dams, take it onto yourself to hook up with "your own" and reproduce. Do your part to create your desired critical mass and shaddap. Okay, maybe you can use a little legislative "incentive"; but better such incentive than dams. Dams are negative. Baby/family bonuses are positive. And take a cue from France in respect; thanks to such bonuses, it's developed a higher natural growth rate than most any other such nation in Europe...

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Last but not least : potatoes and tomatoes are the pride of the American Continent. Best vegetables in the world. I would never give that away to another continent !

do you even understand the message i'm trying to make?

potatoes & tomatoes are from america, yet they have become staple foods for some european nations. they are now associated with those european cultures as if that product has originated from there. the european cultures have absorbed many things from other cultures and made them part of their own, and it's not just foodstuffs.

who knows, poutine falafel's could be recognized as a major part of quebec culture in the coming decades. if they taste good or if alot of people like them, who cares where they originated from. cultures evolve.

 

[adma]

cf. Britain, where curry's overtaken fish'n'chips...

 

[rpgr]

Toronto and assimilation do not belong in the same sentence.

You're obviously as shallow as your argument only taking things at base value.

So what? You've been to Toronto? I'd imagine just the main core or else you'd see with it's borders:

Greek town on the Danforth
Jewish area on Bathurst
Chinese area in the Markham/Toronto border
Korean area along Yonge
J-town on Steels
A Toronto version of little Italy
pockets of Polish areas
numerous Islamic Mosques (I'm not sure i spelled that right)

A bunch of other areas I'm not aquainted with.

Quite a few citizens of Toronto get by knowing little to no english because of these pockets. My grandmother can live in Toronto knowing 0 english. Can the same be said about French and Quebec? Can my grandmother not only survive but thrive not knowing French?

I'm a second generation Chinese and guess what? I'm not entirely assimilated. I don't quite belong with the Chinese crowd nor do I quite belong with "them darn-whitefolk". I best get along with people like me, not quite Chinese, not quite white(washed).

I'll agree on one thing though with you. Perhaps Quebec should seperate from Canada. Why?

Look at what you would win. Hard-line french speaking with no English teachings whatsoever.

Hmm, great!

Do you even realize the devestation to Quebec if that were to happen?

Mass exodus. Of both people and money. All those "impure" people would leave as would big businesses from the US. The main problem immigrants face in getting a job elsewhere is the language barrier. Once your generation goes (that had to speak English to get a job) there will be no more English speaking candidates for jobs living in Quebec.

To combat this you'd have to have English speakers working at the head of companies. They in turn would command the wealth and the power. Once again your faced with the same catch 22 only in a worst position as you no longer have any bargaining power (unemployment vs. unfounded pride, which do you think is the more grave concern?).

All your talk of assimilation, why don't you guys assimilate with the rest of Canada? Why doesn't Canada assimilate with the US? Why doesn't the US stop acting unilaterally and assimilate into the UN?

A foolish fool knows when not to cease foolish thoughts.

 

[Hydrogen]

do you even understand the message i'm trying to make?

potatoes & tomatoes are from america...

To the first point: the message was sent, but clearly not received by the intended recipient.

The tomatoes of today are the product of selective breeding. Originally, they were a sort of berry (tomatoes are a fruit). But I guess one can say that the effort was to make some different from that which once was. Sometimes people don't want to have things frozen in time.

 

[adma]

Another case in point: the States. Where for the sake of this particular kind of argument, IMO if there's any equivalent "threat", it's not from them immigrants, it's from the indigenous, i.e. Red America Jesusland zealots, who're reproducing at a faster rate, i.e. natalism...

 

[DaimonAugustus]

Why not go with the flow? You expect everyone else to. Why not you?

Why not ? Because I have loyalties. That's why. Because I care about my culture and want it to be and thrive etc.

But you would like it uh ? One less pain in Canada's saintly butt.

Who's to say what would happen in an independent Quebec. It isn't independent, is it? I suppose some in that province blame immigration for that.

Some have blamed it on immigration. They were wrong though. We owe it to our own fear of freedom and lack of courage. But I feel the Great Night will come.

A seperate Quebec would still would be surrounded by over 325 million people speaking english as a first or second language, and hundreds of millions of second language english speakers around the world.

My english isn't perfect, but you can certainly count me as one of those who speak english as a second language. I hope I could speak three, or four languages. Knowing languages is a strength and I encourage all Québécois to learn languages.

But that's not the point. The problem is that the ROC has a word to say on our laws. That's what my problem is.

"Neighboors." Yeah, sure.

What ? Is that word offensive as well ? What's your problem with that word. Say it, we'll settle it.

Ah, but remember: you're speaking to a Toronto-based forum here. And you can't get any more multicultural than Toronto.

So ? Didn't I explain that Toronto's context cannot be applied as is to analyse Montréal's context ?

n fact, compare Toronto today to Toronto a scant quarter century ago. Perhaps an argument may be made that the evidently fading strain of Anglo-Euro-Canadian Torontonians needs a municipal version of a legislative dam to protect *itself* from disappearance? After all, they may be disappearing even more thoroughly here than "your" culture and "your" language is where you're coming from.

That comment is the proof that I haven't made my point clear enough yet. I don't think that you have many integration problems in Toronto. People speak the language all over, and if they're young enough, they speak with the local accent. So clearly, nothing's disappearing in Toronto. It is changing, but not disappearing. If anything, immigration makes you stronger. I said it and I'll said it again : congrats.

Look kiddo; let's take a cue from the Rob Fords of this world. Rather than relying on legislative dams, take it onto yourself to hook up with "your own" and reproduce. Do your part to create your desired critical mass and shaddap. Okay, maybe you can use a little legislative "incentive"; but better such incentive than dams. Dams are negative. Baby/family bonuses are positive. And take a cue from France in respect; thanks to such bonuses, it's developed a higher natural growth rate than most any other such nation in Europe...

Totally agree. France is a model in that respect. Pauline Marois began enacting such incentives while she was Minister in the last PQ government. Unfortunately, the Liberals have preferred to cut in those incentives. *shrugs*

But you know, better than hooking up with our own kind, we better get into the business of hooking up with immigrants. It's win-win. Enriches the genetic pool, enriches the cultural background, is nice and exotic (), and is an extraordinary way to favor integration. But you know what it is. Newcomers' traditionnal values often get in the way of intercultural marriages. You know it's true.

do you even understand the message i'm trying to make?

God damn, of course I understood your point ! Damn you're so stuck up. It was an humorous way of aknowledging that I knew, understood and agreed with what you said.

Damn.

who knows, poutine falafel's could be recognized as a major part of quebec culture in the coming decades. if they taste good or if alot of people like them, who cares where they originated from. cultures evolve.

Falafel-poutine actually exist you know ! If you ever get around Montréal, you should try La Banquise on Rachel street, near the corner of Christophe-Colomb. Best poutines in town, and they (literaly) have dozens of different kinds of poutine. Open 24/7, always full (though to get a place, though, even at 3 AM). A classic. A true institution. A must. I really advise you to go there if you have a chance.

So what? You've been to Toronto? I'd imagine just the main core or else you'd see with it's borders:

I certainly need to visit the town more thoroughly, haven't seen it enough to my taste, but it isn't the first city I've visited. I know what to do to discover cities properly. I get off the normal touristic paths. I get off at random subway lines, walk four hours in small streets. Toronto's multicultural image hasn't gone unnoticed to me. But it is mainly an image. When you talk to people (and again, I need to talk more to torontonians in the future, but still), whatever the shape of their faces, the colour of their skins, the look of their clothes, they're damn well integrated (if you don't like the forbidden word ASSIMILATED). They speak english with the local accent !

Quite a few citizens of Toronto get by knowing little to no english because of these pockets. My grandmother can live in Toronto knowing 0 english. Can the same be said about French and Quebec? Can my grandmother not only survive but thrive not knowing French?

Sure, grandmother. I don't want to presume of your situation, but all the chinese friends I had as a kid had an old grandmother at home who couldn't speak any other language than their own. It is well known that learning languages is more difficult when people get older. That's the way it is. What's important is that the kids were integrated. Spoke french with a good old Montréal accent. As you probably speak english with a Toronto accent. Just as I used to speak with my mother's accent, but don't anymore, and can't even fake it. And you know how that's called ? Assimilation. It's not that horrible, is it ?

About "ethnic pockets" in cities... I don't like them. It's all nice and cute when it's folkloric (like chinatown or little italy in Montréal), but when it's serious, it has an odd "ghetto-like" smell to them that I trully dislike. Why confine to a single neighboorhood ? Don't want to get around the locals too much ? Don't want to integrate ?

I remember how I got thrown out of a Kosher Bakery owned by hassidic jews. I was around shopping. I love jewish bakery. I was buying stuff, and the girl serving me was really nice. She could even speak some rudimentary french ! And then the owner got it and asked if I was a "goy". I said yes. Wrong answer. "Get out ! You have nothing to do here !". Warsaw Ghetto is over, idiot, welcome in 2007.

Nevermind, that's just me venting.

I'll agree on one thing though with you. Perhaps Quebec should seperate from Canada. Why?

Look at what you would win. Hard-line french speaking with no English teachings whatsoever.

Hmm, great!

Do you even realize the devestation to Quebec if that were to happen?

Mass exodus. Of both people and money. All those "impure" people would leave as would big businesses from the US. The main problem immigrants face in getting a job elsewhere is the language barrier. Once your generation goes (that had to speak English to get a job) there will be no more English speaking candidates for jobs living in Quebec.

To combat this you'd have to have English speakers working at the head of companies. They in turn would command the wealth and the power. Once again your faced with the same catch 22 only in a worst position as you no longer have any bargaining power (unemployment vs. unfounded pride, which do you think is the more grave concern?).

All your talk of assimilation, why don't you guys assimilate with the rest of Canada? Why doesn't Canada assimilate with the US? Why doesn't the US stop acting unilaterally and assimilate into the UN?

A foolish fool knows when not to cease foolish thoughts.

You have no idea what you're talking about, don't you ? You are the one shouting foolish thoughts. Your mind wanders and rambles. Please pardon my rudeness, but you're off your head ! Because I never talked about ceasing teaching english. I said it just above. We should learn languages. And not just english. Spanish, Portuguese, German, Mandarin, name them.

Oh, and as a side note, what newspapers do you read ? Because chances are that what you read is both owned and/or printed by french-fucks from Québec. But you're right, we're just corporately and financially challenged in Québec. We can't do business. And we're too dumb to learn languages. *rolls eyes*

The tomatoes of today are the product of selective breeding. Originally, they were a sort of berry (tomatoes are a fruit). But I guess one can say that the effort was to make some different from that which once was. Sometimes people don't want to have things frozen in time.

Oh, are you talking about those small, yellow tomato-like cherries ? We call them "cerises de terre", or "earth cherries" if you prefer. Look a lot like tomatoes.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Another case in point: the States. Where for the sake of this particular kind of argument, IMO if there's any equivalent "threat", it's not from them immigrants, it's from the indigenous, i.e. Red America Jesusland zealots, who're reproducing at a faster rate, i.e. natalism...

rarely does a loose woman have a tight vagina- G. Carlin

i think the same theory could apply to this.

 

[adma]

Well, for the record...

In Defence Of Herouxville
Quebec isn't swinging right. Muscular mono-culturalism is swinging left
Jonathan Kay, National Post
Published: Tuesday, October 30, 2007

MONTREAL -Nativism is supposed to be a right-wing creed. So why is Quebec, the most socially liberal province in the country, the only place where Canadians are candidly discussing how far we should go to "accommodate" immigrants? Why are Canadian cartoonists putting KKK costumes on the hotheads of Herouxville instead of, say, Calgary or Red Deer? And why is it the PQ-- not some cowboy-hat party out on the Prairies -- that's proposing a two-tier citizenship system?

It's not because Quebec is swinging right. It's because mono-culturalism is swinging left. Having decisively vanquished traditional Christians in the culture wars, feminists, gay activists and other progressives are no longer willing to risk their winnings by pledging multicultural solidarity with traditional Muslims, Hasidic Jews and other socially conservative immigrant groups.

This is a new phenomenon in Canada, but it's been going on for years in Europe. The old face of nativism used to be Jean-Marie Le Pen, a right-wing Gaullist and old-school bigot who complains crankily about Jews and Blacks. Le Pen is still around. (His National Front party got 10% of the vote in this year's French presidential election.) But today's young voters are drawn more to those cast in the mold of Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn.

When Fortuyn was assassinated in 2002, he was described in the Western media as a "right-wing" politician because of his scathing remarks about Muslims. But the label never fit: Fortuyn was a lusty, openly gay populist who championed euthanasia, liberal drug policies and same-sex marriage. He opposed traditional Muslim culture precisely because it conflicted with the Netherlands' any-thing-goes ethos.

In other words, muscular monoculturalism is no longer the purview of the right. Having been liberated from the odour of racism, it's becoming a mainstream ideology, even a fashionable one, on the left.

With his infamous 1995 comments about "money and the ethnic vote," Jacques Parizeau came off as a sort of Quebecois Le Pen (as do many of today's separatists, which is why the PQ's two-tier citizenship gambit will ultimately backfire). Mario Dumont and Herouxville's councillors, on the other hand, sound more like followers of Fortuyn. In this regard, I would urge all those outraged Canadian pundits who are taking Herouxville as a byword for bigotry to actually read the town's 14-page submission to Quebec's commission on reasonable accommodation, in which the authors approvingly cite Turkey's militantly secularist founder, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk; celebrate Quebec's rejection of the Catholic "theocracy" of the Duplessis era; champion the rights of women and gays; and openly mock Christian fundamentalism ("Recently, the National Assembly allowed the opening of retail stores on Sundays. [God] accommodated us once again, sparing Hell to the faithful.")

What these people are doing is claiming Quebec in the name of state-of-the-art European-style secular liberalism. The idea that "Herouxville is old Quebec, old Canada" -- which appeared in a Globe and Mail editorial last week--is not only wrong: It is the exact opposite of the truth.

Left-wing political trends aside, there are other reasons to have expected that Quebec would be the first part of Canada to decisively challenge multiculturalism, a doctrine that tends to thrive in wealthy nations beset by weak identities and postcolonial guilt. Compared to anglo-Canada, Quebec has a relatively strong sense of collective self. And for obvious historical reasons, Quebecers are more inclined to see themselves as history's victims rather than exploiters.

That's why multiculturalism has been a tough sell in Quebec from the get go. The doctrine became official Canadian government policy largely because Pierre Trudeau was looking to downplay the unique status of French culture by pretending it was just one of many filaments in a rich national tapestry. Even before the word burka entered the popular parlance, many Quebecers rightly saw it as a scam.

But what starts in Quebec won't end here. The debate will spread, and we should be glad of that. For all the rhetorical stock Canadians have put in multiculturalism over the years, the fact remains that it is fundamentally incoherent:How do you intellectually defend a doctrine that preaches "tolerance" toward imported cultures that, themselves, are fundamentally intolerant toward women, gays, heretics and infidels?

Giggle all you like at the bumpkins of Herouxville. At least, they're smart enough to know this question can't be answered. Maybe when the rest of us anglos get over our own guilty Western hangups, we'll come to the same realization.

jkay@nationalpost.com

© National Post 2007

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

God damn, of course I understood your point ! Damn you're so stuck up. It was an humorous way of aknowledging that I knew, understood and agreed with what you said.

Damn.

which god are we talking about? the god of the english or the god of the french?


the interweb works better smilies.

 

[Hydrogen]

Why not ? Because I have loyalties. That's why. Because I care about my culture and want it to be and thrive etc.

Other people have their own loyalties. What makes yours so superior to theirs?

Some have blamed it on immigration. They were wrong though. We owe it to our own fear of freedom and lack of courage. But I feel the Great Night will come.

The point is Quebec is not a country. As for the Great Night, do you mean Halloween?

Sounds ominous.

But that's not the point. The problem is that the ROC has a word to say on our laws. That's what my problem is.

Back to a previous point, Quebec is not a country. And there is a Quebec legislative assembly. And they have managed to pass language laws that were, for many years, among the most restrictive in the Western world. English is not even considered a language for conducting law in Quebec. You think that's smart policy, others find it insulting. But then there are always those fears about strangers, others, outsiders and other goblins that threaten the weakened culture of Quebec.

What ? Is that word offensive as well ? What's your problem with that word. Say it, we'll settle it.

I think you already know. But if you need it to be spelled out for you, look up the meaning for the word "boor." Yeah, sure; you didn't know.

So ? Didn't I explain that Toronto's context cannot be applied as is to analyse Montréal's context ?

Montreal is not like other monocultural regions of Quebec. Any effort to rid Montreal of its historical and contemporary cultural diversity smells like a cultural form of "cleansing." For some, it represents purification; an elimination of the evidence that the others are, or ever were, in that city - a city that those people ( the "others") helped build.

 

[rpgr]

Why not ? Because I have loyalties. That's why. Because I care about my culture and want it to be and thrive etc.

But you would like it uh ? One less pain in Canada's saintly butt.

Loyalties? Loyalties to who/what? You obviously don't have loyalties to Canada by your seperatist rambling. Quebec culture? What is that? It's a mish-mash of French in which France would shake their head at, English Canada and American culture.

Some have blamed it on immigration. They were wrong though. We owe it to our own fear of freedom and lack of courage. But I feel the Great Night will come.

Great night? Now let me see what this statement seems to entail. Yup looks and sounds like religious bigotry/prophecy.

My english isn't perfect, but you can certainly count me as one of those who speak english as a second language. I hope I could speak three, or four languages. Knowing languages is a strength and I encourage all Québécois to learn languages.

But that's not the point. The problem is that the ROC has a word to say on our laws. That's what my problem is.

Nobody cares if your English is sub-standard as long as you can get the general point across. That being said your trying to divorce the issue from the political agenda but you can't. The policy of the ROC and other protective racketeering made by the Quebec government and soveringtist movements is tied directly to it's policies. These people who you elect put forth policies and have their agenda.

It's something Ontario learned too well with Mike Harris, you cannot seperate the political policies from the agenda. Welcome to reality, the voice that says something counts as much as what is being said.

First your saying Quebec needs to "protect" itself from invading cultures now your saying that you encourage people to learn other languages? That's such a proposterous and contradictory statement. Language is a very big part of culture. Practicing a language means engaging a culture. It's not something that can be assimilated. You still havn't answered where does assimilation stop.

What ? Is that word offensive as well ? What's your problem with that word. Say it, we'll settle it.

So ? Didn't I explain that Toronto's context cannot be applied as is to analyse Montréal's context ?

Same as Montreal's context can't be applied to Toronto. Still doesn't change the fact that Toronto's context is more widely applicable than Montreal's in a world view (and Canadian view).

That comment is the proof that I haven't made my point clear enough yet. I don't think that you have many integration problems in Toronto. People speak the language all over, and if they're young enough, they speak with the local accent. So clearly, nothing's disappearing in Toronto. It is changing, but not disappearing. If anything, immigration makes you stronger. I said it and I'll said it again : congrats.



Totally agree. France is a model in that respect. Pauline Marois began enacting such incentives while she was Minister in the last PQ government. Unfortunately, the Liberals have preferred to cut in those incentives. *shrugs*

But you know, better than hooking up with our own kind, we better get into the business of hooking up with immigrants. It's win-win. Enriches the genetic pool, enriches the cultural background, is nice and exotic (), and is an extraordinary way to favor integration. But you know what it is. Newcomers' traditionnal values often get in the way of intercultural marriages. You know it's true.

Your asking what can immigrants do for you, not what you can do for immigrants. English is the most accepted language for business, bar none at the current time. Maybe in 50-100 years it will be Mandarin but it won't be French. Learning English is practical in a world scale, French, or as France would put it, "Quebec French", is not practical for immigrants. If your not attractive to immigrants, how can you expect immigrants to come? Catch 22 buddy, basic immigration psychology here.

God damn, of course I understood your point ! Damn you're so stuck up. It was an humorous way of aknowledging that I knew, understood and agreed with what you said.

Damn.

I think the majority here would say the same thing about you.

mish-mash of French in which France would shake their head at, English Canada and American culture.

Some have blamed it on immigration. They were wrong though. We owe it to our own fear of freedom and lack of courage. But I feel the Great Night will come.

Great night? Now let me see what this statement seems to entail. Yup looks and sounds like religious bigotry/prophecy.

My english isn't perfect, but you can certainly count me as one of those who speak english as a second language. I hope I could speak three, or four languages. Knowing languages is a strength and I encourage all Québécois to learn languages.

But that's not the point. The problem is that the ROC has a word to say on our laws. That's what my problem is.

Nobody cares if your English is sub-standard as long as you can get the general point across. That being said your trying to divorce the issue from the political agenda but you can't. The policy of the ROC and other protective racketeering made by the Quebec government and soveringtist movements is tied directly to it's policies. These people who you elect put forth policies and have their agenda.

It's something Ontario learned too well with Mike Harris, you cannot seperate the political policies from the agenda. Welcome to reality, the voice that says something counts as much as what is being said.

First your saying Quebec needs to "protect" itself from invading cultures now your saying that you encourage people to learn other languages? That's such a proposterous and contradictory statement. Language is a very big part of culture. Practicing a language means engaging a culture. It's not something that can be assimilated. You still havn't answered where does assimilation stop.

What ? Is that word offensive as well ? What's your problem with that word. Say it, we'll settle it.

So ? Didn't I explain that Toronto's context cannot be applied as is to analyse Montréal's context ?

Same as Montreal's context can't be applied to Toronto. Still doesn't change the fact that Toronto's context is more widely applicable than Montreal's in a world view (and Canadian view).

That comment is the proof that I haven't made my point clear enough yet. I don't think that you have many integration problems in Toronto. People speak the language all over, and if they're young enough, they speak with the local accent. So clearly, nothing's disappearing in Toronto. It is changing, but not disappearing. If anything, immigration makes you stronger. I said it and I'll said it again : congrats.



Totally agree. France is a model in that respect. Pauline Marois began enacting such incentives while she was Minister in the last PQ government. Unfortunately, the Liberals have preferred to cut in those incentives. *shrugs*

But you know, better than hooking up with our own kind, we better get into the business of hooking up with immigrants. It's win-win. Enriches the genetic pool, enriches the cultural background, is nice and exotic (), and is an extraordinary way to favor integration. But you know what it is. Newcomers' traditionnal values often get in the way of intercultural marriages. You know it's true.

Your asking what can immigrants do for you, not what you can do for immigrants. English is the most accepted language for business, bar none at the current time. Maybe in 50-100 years it will be Mandarin but it won't be French. Learning English is practical in a world scale, French, or as France would put it, "Quebec French", is not practical for immigrants. If your not attractive to immigrants, how can you expect immigrants to come? Catch 22 buddy, basic immigration psychology here.

I certainly need to visit the town more thoroughly, haven't seen it enough to my taste, but it isn't the first city I've visited. I know what to do to discover cities properly. I get off the normal touristic paths. I get off at random subway lines, walk four hours in small streets. Toronto's multicultural image hasn't gone unnoticed to me. But it is mainly an image. When you talk to people (and again, I need to talk more to torontonians in the future, but still), whatever the shape of their faces, the colour of their skins, the look of their clothes, they're damn well integrated (if you don't like the forbidden word ASSIMILATED). They speak english with the local accent !

Integration, assimilation, doesn't matter what you use they are both garbage.
In immigration you have to look at acceptance vs. tolerance.

An immigrant wants to be accepted, not just tolerated and yes, they do owe the country of destination some attempt to learn the culture so as they do not offend anyone. Yet looking at Quebec figures, it's obvious your not attracting enough people and your not retaining them either. Even if Quebec were a nation you are not devorced from the rest of the world. You need to compete for immigrants.

Sure, grandmother. I don't want to presume of your situation, but all the chinese friends I had as a kid had an old grandmother at home who couldn't speak any other language than their own. It is well known that learning languages is more difficult when people get older. That's the way it is. What's important is that the kids were integrated. Spoke french with a good old Montréal accent. As you probably speak english with a Toronto accent. Just as I used to speak with my mother's accent, but don't anymore, and can't even fake it. And you know how that's called ? Assimilation. It's not that horrible, is it ?

That's the point I am trying to make. People don't need to learn a different language to survive. It's an advantage to them, not a disadvantage. One of the prime reasons for immigration is to reunite families. This is from the viewpoint of the Department of Immigration and of people that go to another country. You yourself acknowledge that older people don't learn new languages easily. How can you expect to retain immigrants if you make it impossible for their mother and father to live there?

About "ethnic pockets" in cities... I don't like them. It's all nice and cute when it's folkloric (like chinatown or little italy in Montréal), but when it's serious, it has an odd "ghetto-like" smell to them that I trully dislike. Why confine to a single neighboorhood ? Don't want to get around the locals too much ? Don't want to integrate ?

I remember how I got thrown out of a Kosher Bakery owned by hassidic jews. I was around shopping. I love jewish bakery. I was buying stuff, and the girl serving me was really nice. She could even speak some rudimentary french ! And then the owner got it and asked if I was a "goy". I said yes. Wrong answer. "Get out ! You have nothing to do here !". Warsaw Ghetto is over, idiot, welcome in 2007.

Nevermind, that's just me venting.

Once again, where do you stop? Quebec is just an ethnic pocket in North America. Your basically doing the same thing. Assimilate or "Get Out!"

You have no idea what you're talking about, don't you ? You are the one shouting foolish thoughts. Your mind wanders and rambles. Please pardon my rudeness, but you're off your head ! Because I never talked about ceasing teaching english. I said it just above. We should learn languages. And not just english. Spanish, Portuguese, German, Mandarin, name them.

I have plenty of idea of what I'm talking about. Studying immigration, worked with immigration for a few years now. Will become a consultant next year after graduating and getting my license. What about you? What are you talking about? Your trying to divorce policy from voice, you can't do that.

Oh, and as a side note, what newspapers do you read ? Because chances are that what you read is both owned and/or printed by french-fucks from Québec. But you're right, we're just corporately and financially challenged in Québec. We can't do business. And we're too dumb to learn languages. *rolls eyes*

Nobody said your too dumb but the more protectionist you get, the more homogenous you get. The more turned off businesses get. Stop looking at your own short sighted self. In Hong Kong, a lot of the leaders and decision makers are actually people from Canada, quite a few born in Canada. Why? Business is done in English. Since Britain left, the homegrown "Hong Kongese" have become progressively worst in English. To try and stay competitive they need people who don't necessarily speak Cantonese or Mandarin but English!

If you need an example that would hit closer to home for you, look at France, if that example isn't self-evident to you then your living in a small world indeed.

 

[DaimonAugustus]

Wee ! Double posting people ! Please be careful.

Other people have their own loyalties. What makes yours so superior to theirs?

Not superior per se. But I am loyal to the country in which I originate and live. If people from abroad choose Québec as their new country, they must become loyal to Québec. That's just obvious. If they don't want to be loyal to Québec, they shouldn't come here in the first place. What country would want citizens who are loyal to some other place, but not to the land they inhabit.

The point is Quebec is not a country. As for the Great Night, do you mean Halloween?

Sounds ominous.

Election and referendum results are usually obtained during the night. Thus the expression Grand Soir used since the 1970s to designate the moment when the independance will be won, and which I translated as Great Night but could have also translated as Great Evening. But Night sounds better.

If you find this ominous, you're paranoiac.

But then there are always those fears about strangers, others, outsiders and other goblins that threaten the weakened culture of Quebec.

I fear badly administered immigration, not strangers. And Québec's culture is menaced, not weakened. You want a weakened culture ? Look in your own backyard.

I think you already know. But if you need it to be spelled out for you, look up the meaning for the word "boor." Yeah, sure; you didn't know.

If you keep giving me intentions that I don't have and believe that I am some kind of evil demon, there's no point in discussing with me.

I didn't know. I make mistakes in english. I looked up boor in my english-french dictionnary. Please believe me, I didn't mean that at all. Sorry I offended you.

Montreal is not like other monocultural regions of Quebec. Any effort to rid Montreal of its historical and contemporary cultural diversity smells like a cultural form of "cleansing." For some, it represents purification; an elimination of the evidence that the others are, or ever were, in that city - a city that those people ( the "others") helped build.

Look, I'm that history made alive. I am a pure synthetic product of that history. Name any of the traditional communities that have inhabited Montréal : I have ancestors belonging to those communities. I have both the old and the new melted into myself.

Now please stop waving that ethnic cleansing scarecrow.

Loyalties? Loyalties to who/what? You obviously don't have loyalties to Canada by your seperatist rambling. Quebec culture? What is that? It's a mish-mash of French in which France would shake their head at, English Canada and American culture.

Sure, I speak a vile, corrupted version of French. Old and used prejudice. Heard it a million times. My grand-father, all those years ago, used to hear the same thing from (who else than) torontonians (he used to inhabit the Queen City). One of his colleagues told him once : "I can't speak french with you, 'cause I learned parisian french." So he brought a good friend of his, who happened to be a girl from Paris, to make it obvious that the language spoken in Paris is the same as the one spoken in Montréal. But then the stupid bloke finds nothing smarter to say than : "You corrupted her with your dialect". Riiiiight.

As for the english and american influences, they're obvious. We've had other influences as well. But we have synthetised our different influences to make something new and original. You know, synthesis ? The thing that multiculturalists don't do ?

The policy of the ROC and other protective racketeering made by the Quebec government and soveringtist movements is tied directly to it's policies.

Please re-read that sentence. Policies are linked to policies...

These people who you elect put forth policies and have their agenda.

Of course. Policies are, for example, to protect french. Agenda is to make Québec an independant country. And ?

First your saying Quebec needs to "protect" itself from invading cultures now your saying that you encourage people to learn other languages? That's such a proposterous and contradictory statement. Language is a very big part of culture. Practicing a language means engaging a culture. It's not something that can be assimilated. You still havn't answered where does assimilation stop.

There is a contradiction there only if you think in a manichean way, like a programmed robot. People can learn languages without forgetting who they are. People can learn languages without loosing their culture. I have learned english, haven't I ? Am I less Québécois for that ? Come on !

Your asking what can immigrants do for you, not what you can do for immigrants.

Of course. We're offering a new place to live. If they like it and take it, we expect respect and loyalty. If they fill those conditions, we can be friends.

If your not attractive to immigrants, how can you expect immigrants to come?

The fact is that immigrants do come.

Besides, it's not the number that matters most to me, but quality.

That's the point I am trying to make. People don't need to learn a different language to survive.

Gosh, that's an open minded attitude, now, isn't it ? I don't need to learn the language of my new country, so why learn it, right ? Please don't tell me immigrants should be lauded for refusing to learn the language of their new country. That's called : a total lack of respect.

One of the prime reasons for immigration is to reunite families. This is from the viewpoint of the Department of Immigration and of people that go to another country.

That's not the vewpoint of Québec's Ministry of Immigration. The official point of immigration is to get new workers or new money. The unofficial point is to get new friends. If the family wants or needs to come, why not. More friends.

How can you expect to retain immigrants if you make it impossible for their mother and father to live there?

à

"Impossible to live there". You exagerate so much, your caricature has lost all credibility and makes nobody laugh. They *do* live here. But you can't expect a normal life if you can't communicate with the majority of people. It's an obvious handicap.

Once again, where do you stop? Quebec is just an ethnic pocket in North America. Your basically doing the same thing. Assimilate or "Get Out!"

Assimilation is delimited by national borders.

I have plenty of idea of what I'm talking about. Studying immigration, worked with immigration for a few years now. Will become a consultant next year after graduating and getting my license. What about you? What are you talking about? Your trying to divorce policy from voice, you can't do that.

You missed what I meant. You seemed to think that after independance, Québecois would instantly stop learning english (or any other language for that matter) and hermetically isolate themselves from the rest of the world. You may know immigration, but you obviously don't read me correctly and know nothing of the sovereignist ideal.

To try and stay competitive they need people who don't necessarily speak Cantonese or Mandarin but English!

If you need an example that would hit closer to home for you, look at France, if that example isn't self-evident to you then your living in a small world indeed.

Leaders who can't speak the language of the people they lead ? You must be kidding right ? Sounds a lot like compradors to me. You know, the name they give in Latin America to locals who have turned against their own to prefer the financial benefits of collaborating with a foreign colonizer (whom I need not name). You know, those overly rich bastards who can speak better english than spanish and spit on their people, and sleep in mansion while their brothers live in *dumps* and sleep in the dirt.

There are other examples. Queen Rania of Jordan for example, who can speak better english than arabic. The most horrible example in history must be the kapos, in nazi concentration camps.

This kind of people have had many names in history. I usually call them traitors.

I don't need to become a traitor to open to others and do business. I have principles and am loyal to my people.