OneCity Plan

[datamouse]

datamouse:

Considering the extension of BD to STC, the rationale for having a subway along that stretch of Sheppard is kind of moot.

AoD

I disagree. It makes traveling east on Sheppard to STC more attractive as an alternative downtown now that there's no transfer with the SRT. Secondly, one of the main points behind the Sheppard line was to connect two city centres. Now yes, SCC and NYCC have not reached the expectations but I argue that the city needs to do more to grow the centres. Continuing to build office towers almost exclusively downtown is not the best way to go about city planning. A good way to solve congestion is to not make the downtown core the destination for everybody but to have people instead traveling to the suburban centres.

 

[Filip]

Note to all who butchered me for being vehemently against Transit City... I was against it not because of the chosen technology (LRT has its place, as does everything else), it was the totality of it.

- "Here's a bunch of lines on a map, they will ALL be one technology because we like it that's why".

Toronto's problems require a creative mix of technologies in order to deliver the best results. Relying on only one is myopic and a colossal version of 'the cheapening'. Individual parts of TC I liked are back on the board with this proposal. I was against Sheppard East and Eglinton, but what's done is done. Now is the time to concentrate on other corridors.

Waterfront West will clearly benefit me, but hopefully its timeline isn't somewhere near the tail end of the implementation post 2035 or I will not support any tax increases. We can barely move on Lake Shore and the city has no qualms about approving tower after tower here. That's for another thread though. The city never quite figured how to get the WW LRT into the downtown core. We heard a lot of tunnelling, bridging and creative routing just to connect it to the existing Exhibition streetcar; let alone into Union. A best bet would be to terminate it early at any proposed DRL subway line in the west. A Roncesvalles/Queen DRL station with a WW LRT terminal would be ideal and probably the most sensible.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

datamouse:

And how is it that having an LRT would prove insufficient to grow the centres, when what's being proposed will actually provide a subway connection to STC (and more significantly, a subway extension that intersects a new Eglinton line)? There is nothing preventing office towers from going up at any of the centres should the market demands it, subway or no subway. And should demand warrant it, subways can still be extended in the future.

AoD

 

[gweed123]

They seem to also mention that the Waterfront West LRT and Waterfront East Streetcar will be separate lines. I wonder if it makes more sense to build these as a single through-line, connecting to YUS just south of Union?

datamouse:

And how is it that having an LRT would prove insufficient to grow the centres, when what's being proposed will actually provide a subway connection to STC (and more significantly, a subway extension that intersects a new Eglinton line)? There is nothing preventing office towers from going up at any of the centres should the market demands it, subway or no subway.

AoD

The majority of Scarborough will benefit more from an express line on the Stouffville line more than they will from a Sheppard East extension.

 

[Filip]

datamouse:

And how is it that having an LRT would prove insufficient to grow the centres, when what's being proposed will actually provide a subway connection to STC (and more significantly, a subway extension that intersects a new Eglinton line)? There is nothing preventing office towers from going up at any of the centres should the market demands it, subway or no subway.

AoD

I think that STC extension should continue north until it hits the Sheppard LRT. Inter-connectivity is key.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Note to all who butchered me for being vehemently against Transit City... I was against it not because of the chosen technology (LRT has its place, as does everything else), it was the totality of it.

- "Here's a bunch of lines on a map, they will ALL be one technology because we like it that's why".

Toronto's problems require a creative mix of technologies in order to deliver the best results. Relying on only one is myopic and a colossal version of 'the cheapening'. Individual parts of TC I liked are back on the board with this proposal. I was against Sheppard East and Eglinton, but what's done is done. Now is the time to concentrate on other corridors.

Waterfront West will clearly benefit me, but hopefully its timeline isn't somewhere near the tail end of the implementation post 2035 or I will not support any tax increases. We can barely move on Lake Shore and the city has no qualms about approving tower after tower here. That's for another thread though. The city never quite figured how to get the WW LRT into the downtown core. We heard a lot of tunnelling, bridging and creative routing just to connect it to the existing Exhibition streetcar; let alone into Union. A best bet would be to terminate it early at any proposed DRL subway line in the west. A Roncesvalles/Queen DRL station with a WW LRT terminal would be ideal and probably the most sensible.

Luckily for you, they claim it is second priority, after the bloor extension to sheppard. Meaning it will be the second years funding.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I think some form of SRT extension (be it subway or otherwise) to Sheppard has always been in the books. Nothing new there.

AoD

 

[Filip]

Luckily for you, they claim it is second priority, after the bloor extension to sheppard. Meaning it will be the second years funding.

There really is no point to a WW LRT if you bring the subway to Roncesvalles, along Queen. The 501s biggest problem is Queen St. The Humber Bay ROW and Lake Shore in Etobicoke is clear sailing for the streetcar.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

We have a map - from the Globe:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ture-stintzs-onecity-proposal/article4372934/

AoD

 

[gweed123]

I think some form of SRT extension (be it subway or otherwise) to Sheppard has always been in the books. Nothing new there.

AoD

This plan is largely just a Frankenstein of some of the different lines proposed in various other plans of the past 50 years. The only ones that are somewhat unique are the Etobicoke and Scarborough express lines, and even those have been informally proposed in a couple different forms.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

gweed123:

Of course, they will need to optimize it a bit more. More significantly I think is the commitment to find new revenue sources and get council to vote for it definitively. And you're right, Etobicoke and Scarborough Express sounds like something that should be on GO's plate.

AoD

 

[Filip]

Nobody has really touched upon the elephant in the room.. This is entirely reliant on the Queen's Park and Ottawa picking up a third each. $10 billion from Queen's Park I could see, but $10 billion from Ottawa? Let's get real here.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Filip:

Considering how mild the proposed CVA scheme was, it probably wouldn't be a stretch to see some other tools being used if necessary. Parking tax, tolls, vehicle registration, etc.

AoD

 

[datamouse]

Are we really going to play the "why not LRT" game? If this OneCity plan is now suggesting a subway instead of LRT for the SRT route up to Sheppard then an argument for a subway on Sheppard is valid. The Sheppard Subway had decades of planning with it (not to mention sunk costs on the existing portion) so I don't find myself without cause for continuing my support for a line that has a longer history of planning than the LRT line.

Then there's the debate over Sheppard from earlier this year. Much of the talk was over how to play for it and Ford was terrible at answering this question. Now all of a sudden it's all the rage on council to talking about ways to raise funds to pay for transit. Yet, no one wants to open the issue again. The battle was won by the LRT side but screw compromise now that it's won. I can quote DeBaermaker who said during the lead up to the council Sheppard vote at a public debate "I would vote for the Sheppard subway tomorrow if there was funding." Clearly this was an outright lie. Sintz too countlessly said there was no money so there was no point in the debate.

 

[gweed123]

gweed123:

Of course, they will need to optimize it a bit more. More significantly I think is the commitment to find new revenue sources and get council to vote for it definitively. And you're right, Etobicoke and Scarborough Express sounds like something that should be on GO's plate.

AoD

Yeah, I'm sure through more detailed EAs and analysis, that more optimized alignments will be chosen. Just look at what happened with the Weston are of the Eglinton LRT. More detailed analysis came up with what most people thought it should be to begin with.

And yes, hopefully Metrolinx will step in and say "I'm glad that you see the importance of this line, but I think we'll take those lines from here". Hopefully combine those in with the Lakeshore electrification.

Nobody has really touched upon the elephant in the room.. This is entirely reliant on the Queen's Park and Ottawa picking up a third each. $10 billion from Queen's Park I could see, but $10 billion from Ottawa? Let's get real here.

Metrolinx will be releasing their funding scheme in the next year or so, so hopefully that will plug a lot of the holes that we're seeing right now.