New Streetcars

[DENTROBATE54]

Unfortunately, the surface sections of Eglinton may well have bus-stop-style spacing, which would lead to bunching that would completely eliminate the benefit of the underground section. What's the point of a billion-dollar tunnel when the streetcars arrive at the portal in 4-vehicle clumps every 25 minutes?

I don't see how that's possible. The further east and west one travels on Eglinton Ave the less frequent the number of stops. Hence the surface portion would have spacing comparable to the underground portion (450m or roughly two stops to a concession [bipartites]).

I also hope against hope for a DRL, but it seems the best case scenario would be some kind of underground streetcar, limited to the capacity of the surface section on Don Mills.

The DRL does little for Old Town Toronto. The inner city gets bypassed and commuters would still be dependent on streetcars for east-west travel. BRT could fulfil everything a DRL can for far less.

The current arrangement really shows that Transit City isn't really about carefully considered transit planning: the Don Mills streetcar dumps everyone on the Bloor line, adding even more pressure on Bloor-Yonge station and the Yonge line south of Bloor, the most congested points on the system. But, as Glenn de Baeremaeker says, it gets a streetcar to every councillor's ward!

Yeah, I agree, BD's already nearing at-capacity levels. The added stresses of an extended SRT along with four new LRT lines (Jane, DM, Eglinton, Scarb-Malvern) might be too much. A second east-west subway to siphon away alot of the passengers coming in from the suburbs would prevent overcrowding.

If what you say is true about bus-bunching, then most obviously the Eglinton tunnel should be a subway from the get-go and directly intercept the two north-south TC lines (Jane, DM) at a mass transit terminal at both ends instead of petering off in Leaside and Black Creek.

The next thing they'll do is propose a billion-dollar rebuild of Bloor-Yonge station, instead of just spending the same amount on a DRL subway!

Yes it is a waste of funds to reno an already asethetically pleasing station while there's still unpaved walls on the Sheppard line, missing wall panels at St. Geogre, guck and ooze smeared on the walls of Islington, missing name plaques at St Patrick and the list goes on !

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The Sheppard stations are finished...consider them CTU-chic.

A DRL would be great for travel all around the old city of Toronto. It'd take plenty of 'long-distance' pressure off the E/W streetcar lines.

 

[grey]

The Sheppard stations look great.

 

[jwloach]

Does City Hall or the TTC ever discuss whether we should have street cars at all? I often use the Queen 501 from the far east end, and am amazed at how impractical the entire idea of mixing rail into traffic is, regardless of whether it's in its own right-of-way (like Spadina) or simply down the middle. Bunching, inflexibility, danger while entering and leaving, intersection congestion, road repairs, overhead cable complexity, sensitivity to problems, and high capital investment are all serious problems. I say rip up the rails and buy new energy efficient hybrid buses. We'll save money, have much better service, and have better looking streetscapes.

 

[catcher_of_cats]

Does City Hall or the TTC ever discuss whether we should have street cars at all? I often use the Queen 501 from the far east end, and am amazed at how impractical the entire idea of mixing rail into traffic is, regardless of whether it's in its own right-of-way (like Spadina) or simply down the middle. Bunching, inflexibility, danger while entering and leaving, intersection congestion, road repairs, overhead cable complexity, sensitivity to problems, and high capital investment are all serious problems. I say rip up the rails and buy new energy efficient hybrid buses. We'll save money, have much better service, and have better looking streetscapes.

This has already been done in almost every city in North America from the 1940s to the 1980s. It is a flawed idea and it is good to see that LRT is making a strong comeback, especially in American cities.

 

[RedRocket191]

I seriously doubt that buses will be able to handle the loads that streetcar lines regularly experience. Also, buses will have to pull in and out of traffic, causing delays. Streetcars and light rail have their flaws, but they are a step up from buses.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Have a look at http://www.lightrailnow.org/myths/m_mythlog001.htm to bust the myths that buses are cheaper or better than light rail.
Cities in North America are returning to light rail and streetcars because of the damage done by buses on public transit.
As for Bus Rapid Transit, this report at http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_brt_2006-10a.htm shows the problems that Los Angeles had with their buses vs. rail.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

not to mention the sense of permanence rail provides over bus and even trolley wires.. the investment an agency makes in laying streetcar track shows confidence in a neighbourhood and helps to boost property values and increase the attractiveness of the area

 

[ShonTron]

This has already been done in almost every city in North America from the 1940s to the 1980s. It is a flawed idea and it is good to see that LRT is making a strong comeback, especially in American cities.

Basically, all the North American Cities that had abandoned streetcar systems had done so by 1959 (there were a few exceptions - LA and Baltimore lasted to 1963). The ones left after that were legacies of systems that had tunneled and PROW portions where it was infeasable to bustitute - Philadelphia, Newark, San Francisco, Boston, Cleveland (Shaker Heights) and Pittsburgh. Toronto was a rare exception as it invested so much into the streetcar system up to the 1960s that abandonment only made sense to them after the Bloor-Danforth line opened, and by then, the preservationists had gained stature.

Not a single system was abandoned in the 1970s or 1980s, though some trackage was (ie Rogers Road, the Drake line in Pittsburgh).

 

[jwloach]

Actually, I'm a big fan of LRT, subways, and rail in general. We desperately need a rail link to the airport. The problems crop up only when the rail line runs down the middle of a relatively narrow street like Queen. Carelessly parked cars or minor accidents stop the whole system. Bicycle tires get caught in the tracks. Traffic is held up, causing much more pollution from cars stopping and starting than the streetcar could ever recoup. Our transit service on Queen was fantastic when the streetcar tracks were being rebuilt and we were given buses. The usual 40 minute streetcar time was reduced to a 20 minute bus ride, with no long waits or short-turns.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

This is precisely the reason why we need more dedicated lanes for streetcars, particularly in the core. King and Queen could easily be turned into quasi-transit malls between Bathurst and the Don Valley, especially with Richmond and Adelaide there to pick up the slack for car traffic, which would probably flow better without being stuck behind streetcars anyway.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Protruding streetcar stops

There are plans to change the streetscape on Roncesvalles http://roncesvallesvillage.ca/docs/Streetscape Plan.pdf to have protruding sidewalks at corners, crosswalks, and the streetcar stops. This means that at passengers would be able to board streetcars right from the curb without stepping down to the pavement. The curb would be extended, removing the curb lane, at the streetcar stop. This would allow for a wider sidewalk, but only at the streetcar stop, and maybe a corner.
It is still in the planning stage, so how many protrusions is still to be determined. However, if successful, it could be expanded in time to other narrow streets that have streetcars.

 

[JasonParis]

There are plans to change the streetscape on Roncesvalles http://roncesvallesvillage.ca/docs/Streetscape Plan.pdf to have protruding sidewalks at corners, crosswalks, and the streetcar stops. This means that at passengers would be able to board streetcars right from the curb without stepping down to the pavement. The curb would be extended, removing the curb lane, at the streetcar stop. This would allow for a wider sidewalk, but only at the streetcar stop, and maybe a corner.
It is still in the planning stage, so how many protrusions is still to be determined. However, if successful, it could be expanded in time to other narrow streets that have streetcars.

The idea has merit, but I see St. Clair-esque protests if that seriously gets proposed.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Here's the TTC's version http://roncesvallesvillage.ca/docs/Roncesvalles Presentation.pdf which almost looks similar, but from their point of view. The TTC has 3 different bumpouts designs, 2 of which allow for bicycles.

 

[JasonParis]

A combination of building bumpouts and reducing about 30-40% of streetcar stops could really improve service on some core routes.