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Metropass holders to pay for parking?

We'll see what eliminating the free parking does to demand. A decrease in demand should lead to a decrease in price and/or a discounted monthly/yearly parking pass.

However, this is the TTC we're talking about. We might just end up with half-empty parking lots.
 
We'll see what eliminating the free parking does to demand. A decrease in demand should lead to a decrease in price and/or a discounted monthly/yearly parking pass.

However, this is the TTC we're talking about. We might just end up with half-empty parking lots.

4% of pass holders use the parking lots and therefore, the rest are subsiding them to use the lots.

A fair number of pass holders do not use transit at all since it cheaper to buy a pass to park that is near where they work than pay for regular parking.

There maybe a lost of 1% for ridership doing this.

My right, TTC could be sue by a pass holder when they cannot find a space as the pass entitle them to a free spot in the first place.

The lots do not recover the full cost from the pass holder and it help the cause of raising transit fare.
 
we'll just have to wait to see the transit ridership drop through the floor once TTC implements the 'no free metropass parking' ... silly idea really given TTC services the larger GTAH popluation reaching far beyond City of Toronto limits (given all the jobs in TO as a business core)
 
I see parking as a necessary evil due to the current bus route coverage. If we want to reduce the strain on parking lots, we need to increase the number of local bus routes and GO shuttles. If I can walk five minutes to the bus stop and ride the bus to the train station, then driving to the station and hunting for parking that might not be there becomes very unattractive. If I have to walk 20 minutes to the bus stop for another 20 minute ride to the train station, then driving will cut the time getting to the train station in half.

Agreed. Of course this heavily depends on certain factors like where the station in question is, and where the average person traveling to that station is coming from.

For a station like Finch, you're getting people from far reaches of the GTA who are only parking at Finch because they can do it without an additional cost.

Fact of the matter is that nobody (during business hours) is technically parking for "free". Anyone who owns a metropass has purchased their right to park at a TTC parking lot. For the current cost of the pass, I'd say it is justified. Taking the privilege of parking out of the equation for the metropasses makes the overall value of getting a metropass over a bunch of tokens significantly less appealing.

A lot of people are going to opt to drive downtown instead simply because of this simple way of looking at how things are going to be from now on:

1. You pay $6 to park (example, Finch)
2. You pay $2.75 to hop on the subway.
3. You pay $2.75 to get back to the parking lot at the end of the day.

You just paid $11.50 for a day's commute. Why bother with the inconvenience when you could simply drive all the way downtown, pay a similar rate (from $9 to $15) and just park down there? In fact, that way you'd be even closer to where you work anyways!

This isn't a good thing, people. I can see why some of you are celebrating, but that's only because you live in an area which may have sufficient transit routes TO your nearby transit hub. Not everyone is as fortunate, and frankly you should be thankful some people are even bothering to take transit for at least half of their commute rather than none at all.
 
Agreed. Of course this heavily depends on certain factors like where the station in question is, and where the average person traveling to that station is coming from.

For a station like Finch, you're getting people from far reaches of the GTA who are only parking at Finch because they can do it without an additional cost.

Fact of the matter is that nobody (during business hours) is technically parking for "free". Anyone who owns a metropass has purchased their right to park at a TTC parking lot. For the current cost of the pass, I'd say it is justified. Taking the privilege of parking out of the equation for the metropasses makes the overall value of getting a metropass over a bunch of tokens significantly less appealing.

A lot of people are going to opt to drive downtown instead simply because of this simple way of looking at how things are going to be from now on:

1. You pay $6 to park (example, Finch)
2. You pay $2.75 to hop on the subway.
3. You pay $2.75 to get back to the parking lot at the end of the day.

You just paid $11.50 for a day's commute. Why bother with the inconvenience when you could simply drive all the way downtown, pay a similar rate (from $9 to $15) and just park down there? In fact, that way you'd be even closer to where you work anyways!

This isn't a good thing, people. I can see why some of you are celebrating, but that's only because you live in an area which may have sufficient transit routes TO your nearby transit hub. Not everyone is as fortunate, and frankly you should be thankful some people are even bothering to take transit for at least half of their commute rather than none at all.


Does anyone, though, actually pay $2.75 for the TTC? I use it very infrequently but even I buy tokens in bulk and keep them in my desk....surely a regular rider would either buy a pass or a bunch of tokens.....the savings changes the math considerably.

A hundred dollar metro pass used only for commuting (ie. one return trip per day, 5 days a week, 4.3 weeks in a month) works out to $4.65 per day ad that to the $6 parking and you are down to $10.65 a day....that is cheaper than any of the lots around my office for sure! (there are probably cheaper lots a fair distance from me right here in the core but I think you have to compare the costs to the ones that are near the downtown subway spots to create a fair comparison).

When you factor in the additional gasoline costs, wear and tear on vehicle costs and the extra value you have in the metropass (you can use it during the day for multiple trips, you are getting weekends for fee, you are getting a tax credit, you can share/sell it to friends who use it very infrequently) there is still way more value in using the pass than driving downtown.

I think what the TTC is realizing is that they have been over subsidizing/discounting the metropass. I think you will see them change how they market it now to point out that it is still a pretty good value.
 
Of course I'm not questioning the fact taking transit would have more value than driving downtown, but it's important to realize that not everyone is prepared to think the same way.

It's for the same reasons that some car drivers think taking the bus is more expensive. You have to pay to get on the bus, every time. Its psychological. When you get into your car, you don't pay a cent. You just get in and go. So because of that, most people just assume taking the bus costs more.

The big kicker here is that the Metropass is not currently what it is supposed to be. In other transit systems, buying a monthly pass proves to be a type of bulk discount on usage meant as a bonus to those who ride frequently. But the Metropass here is not the same, because here a Metropass costs exactly the same as it would cost you to pay cash fare for two trips, 5 times a week. And if you use $2.25 as the calculation (bulk token cost) then the Metropass should cost 90 bucks flat.

I'm sorry but the Metropass without the benefit of parking is a joke. I'm glad I'll no longer be using the system on a regular basis after today.

Look at the YRT. Cash fare is $3, but the metropass costs $95. That's what a monthly pass is supposed to look like.
 
we'll just have to wait to see the transit ridership drop through the floor once TTC implements the 'no free metropass parking' ... silly idea really given TTC services the larger GTAH popluation reaching far beyond City of Toronto limits (given all the jobs in TO as a business core)

All of the parking lots impacted for all TTC stations only hold about 10 trains worth of passengers.

That is about 5 minutes worth of service during the entire rush hour.

The typical annual ridership increase is 3% per year -- far more than is impacted by this parking change.

1 year from today I predict increased ridership levels and a slightly better budget.
 
All of the parking lots impacted for all TTC stations only hold about 10 trains worth of passengers.

That is about 5 minutes worth of service during the entire rush hour.

The typical annual ridership increase is 3% per year -- far more than is impacted by this parking change.

1 year from today I predict increased ridership levels and a slightly better budget.

I agree. Some people will chose to drive downtown, and that is their prerogative. But overall, there still will be a net increase in transit use.
 
The big kicker here is that the Metropass is not currently what it is supposed to be. In other transit systems, buying a monthly pass proves to be a type of bulk discount on usage meant as a bonus to those who ride frequently. But the Metropass here is not the same, because here a Metropass costs exactly the same as it would cost you to pay cash fare for two trips, 5 times a week. And if you use $2.25 as the calculation (bulk token cost) then the Metropass should cost 90 bucks flat.

Assuming 4.3 week's per month, two round trips at $2.25 each direction equates to $96.75......so there is a small discount built in. What is the tax credit (which you would not get buying tokens)...17%? so there is another $17 so the effective cost is $79.75?

Pretty good discount considering that gives you (to steal a line from the cell phone companies) evenings and weekends for free!
 
I heard TTC and the police did scan every plate in all the lots to see where the drivers were coming from for the report on parking. This was in the last 24hrs.

Some real messages are being sent out related to the report and it not good.

TTC has some real problems related to the report with TTC burying their head in the sand.
 
Assuming 4.3 week's per month, two round trips at $2.25 each direction equates to $96.75......so there is a small discount built in. What is the tax credit (which you would not get buying tokens)...17%? so there is another $17 so the effective cost is $79.75?

Pretty good discount considering that gives you (to steal a line from the cell phone companies) evenings and weekends for free!

With the TTC, ridership on evenings and weekends is a lot higher when comparing with U.S. cities (except New York City). When I was in Atlanta, their Marta (subway) had weekend headways of 10 minutes (TTC is 5 minutes), and was very sparse. Other towns and cities don't even have weekend service, because everyone almost drives. Here, some routes are so full and frequent, visitors almost forget it is not a work day but a weekend, in comparison with their cities in the states.

That is why the TTC Metropass is high, because we use it more in the non-rush hours.
 
It all boils down to convenience. There are a lot of people who hate downtown and only go there because their job is there. If they live in the suburbs with 2.3 kids, picket fence, etc., they are going to choose the most convenient way to get downtown to their job.
If that means driving to a (subsidized) TTC lot and then using their MetroPass, they will do it because over all it may be both a little cheaper and convenient. Take away the 'subsidized' parking and many of those will opt to simply drive all the way downtown. Or, the company chiefs could look to the suburbs when their downtown leases come due in the next couple years and move those jobs out of the city entirely.
It is a balancing act for both the TTC and the city. Neither may want to appear to be 'subsiziding' car use, but for the majority of the people in and around the GTA the auto is the best, most convenient way of getting around.

I have said this before. We can social engineer all we want, but car use (even in the core) is not going down. If we can build subways out to Vaughan and then put cheap, multi-level parking garages at the end of those subways, I think that would be a good benefit for all.

Isn't that better than building more road capacity downtown?

Or are we just going to hope cars will go away?
 
Check out this old Star article on free parking:

Tolls may be an idea that some people and some cities are finally willing to debate, but free parking remains the blind spot in urban and transportation planning. I'd heard various estimates (four, eight, 13) for the number of parking spots per car in North America, and I have to admit that, initially, I was shocked. After all, like most people, when I'm driving around hunting for a legal space – all the while burning fossil fuels, spewing emissions and adding to the traffic congestion – it never occurs to me that North American cities devote so much space to parking.

But the typical driver has a parking spot at home and one at work (usually bigger than the cubicle he or she spends all day in) as well as shared spots at malls, stores, restaurants and even churches.

We're so accustomed to abundant free parking that we resist paying for it, hate looking for it and, most of all, dread getting tickets. As Donald Shoup, America's parking guru, told me, "Everybody thinks parking is a personal problem, not a policy problem." But everybody is wrong.

Born in California in 1938, Shoup was living in Honolulu when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941. Now a professor at UCLA's urban planning department and the author of The High Cost of Free Parking, he has a growing band of followers who call themselves Shoupistas even though the market-oriented policies he advocates could best be summed up by the battle cry, "Charge whatever the traffic will bear."

He'd offered to arrange "free (or rather fully subsidized) parking" for me, but I wanted to take the bus in order to experience public transit in Los Angeles. I made it to UCLA 45 minutes early and spent the time checking out the campus, and then went up to his office and found a bald man with a grey beard sitting at a desk that had a radio in the shape of a parking meter on it.

Shoup isn't sure what the ratio of parking spots to cars is – he suspects it's at least three or four to one, probably more – but he knows it's too high. He's also convinced that free parking not only encourages people to drive, it's actually expensive because subsidizing it costs the economy more than the U.S. government devotes to Medicare.

Turning to his computer, he showed me aerial photos of several cities to demonstrate how much land we waste just to give drivers a place to leave their wheels. "Parking is the single-biggest land use in almost any city and almost everybody has ignored it," he told me. "It's like dark matter in the universe: We know there's something there, and it seems to weigh a lot, but we don't know what it is. If only we could get our hands on it."

While he was at his computer, he also gave me a virtual tour of the Old Town Pasadena neighbourhood, with before and after photos that showed how it had gone from skid row to upscale destination.

ONE OF HIS IDEAS was instrumental in that transformation. The city faced a common problem: Parking was free, but the few merchants who were still in business complained that it was inadequate. The people who worked in the stores took most of the spots, leaving customers to drive around searching for one – or just staying away. Meanwhile, the city had a vision of a revitalized downtown but no money to repair sidewalks, plant trees, increase security or take any of the other steps necessary to attract people.

Shoup recommended charging enough for parking to maintain an 85 per cent occupancy rate and using the money shoppers dropped in the meters to improve the neighbourhood. The revenue couldn't go into the city's general coffers; it had to be spent on the streets.

Once that happened, the business community started to invest, too – even sandblasting and renovating derelict buildings – and soon the shop owners, who had initially opposed meters, wanted to charge for parking until midnight. They wanted the money for the improvements, but they also discovered that their fears about scaring away customers were unfounded – anyone who really wanted to shop or eat in the area was willing to invest a few quarters.

As the area became more popular, the meters raised more money for more improvements, which increased the popularity. And so on. The city now collects one million dollars a year to pay for upkeep that includes sweeping the sidewalks nightly and steam-cleaning them twice a month.

In Calvin Trillin's Tepper Isn't Going Out, a slight but charming novel about a man who becomes a New York folk hero because of his parking acumen, once Murray Tepper finds a parking spot, he just sits there and enjoys it. But when Shoup and I talked about the book, he pointed out that Tepper wouldn't have stayed put so long if Manhattan charged the right price for street parking. The right price is the one that means there are always one or two open spots per block. Since the cost encourages turnover, time limits are unnecessary; in fact, any place that needs to impose time limits is not charging enough.

A city should adjust the rate every quarter to ensure the 15 per cent vacancy rate, always letting the market decide the price. "Nobody can tell you what the right price of gold is, or the right price of wheat or apples," he argued. "It just happens."

Free off-street parking isn't something that just happens, though, because planning departments always insist that developers include a minimum number of parking spots. Shoup doesn't have much respect for the ability of urban planners to determine how many spots are necessary. Since planners don't learn anything about parking in school, they learn it on the job, but because parking is so political – NIMBY neighbours constantly squawk at the thought of anyone parking on their street – what they really learn is the politics of parking.

"Planning will be looked back on as worse than phrenology, because phrenology didn't do any harm," he said, referring to the nineteenth-century pseudoscience that claimed to be able to determine character and other traits from the size and shape of a cranium.

The harm abundant free parking does feeds on itself: All that land dedicated to parking, which often sits empty for much of the day, increases sprawl, and that sprawl makes alternatives such as public transit and walking less feasible, which forces more people into cars, which increases the need for more parking.

Again, Shoup argued that the market should decide: Freed from the arbitrary and capricious demands of the planners, developers will put in the right amount of parking – enough to meet their customers' needs, but not so much that they waste valuable space or money.

When the Westfield San Francisco Centre reopened in September 2006 after a major renovation, it was triple the size, featured high-profile tenants such as Bloomingdale's and expected 25 million visitors a year – all without adding any new parking. A lot of people shook their heads at that, but the mall is close to 32 transit lines and sits across the street from a large parking garage that was rarely anywhere close to full.

In 1992, the state of California adopted another Shoupism: Under the parking cash-out law, companies that pay for employees' parking must offer the equivalent in cash to nonparkers. So someone who works for a firm that pays $150 a month for each spot in an underground lot can opt to forgo the spot and pocket the cash. After the law came in, 13 per cent of employees took the money – most switching to car pools or taking public transit, though a few started riding a bike or walking to work.

ALTHOUGH HIS ideas seem like so much common sense, Shoup still feels they're underappreciated. Many places want to thrive the way Old Town Pasadena has, but few realize how crucial the meter money was to that success.

Still, he knows some planners are curious because he receives more invitations to speak than he can accept. Cities pay him large lecture fees, fly him first class and then wine him and dine him, but they don't all do what he suggests because parking is so political.

"All I can do is go and say, 'You're doing everything wrong,' " said Shoup, who rides a bike about three kilometres to campus, puts just 5,600 kilometres a year on his Infiniti, and admitted that he's often mistaken as an enemy of the car. He insists he's not; it's just that people would live differently – read: drive less – if they had to pay for parking.

The good news is that all that parking space is an accidental land reserve for housing that can bring in tax revenue even as it helps ease traffic congestion, air pollution and energy dependence.

"The nice thing is that when cities adopt what I'm saying" – he snapped his fingers – "like that, it works."
 

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