Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[nfitz]

I get that that is the way it is....I just don't see that it should be. I just see a big difference between an A-B-C trip and a A-B-A trip.

The question is, how do you design the algorithm, particularly when you only know the tap-on location.

Say you start your trip at Finch station, and you go to King station. But you stop at Eglinton to buy something particular. How does Presto know the difference between a return trip starting at Davisville,and a continuation of the trip.

Even on buses, if it knows direction. Let's say you normally take the Don Mills bus from O'Connor to York Mills. But you have to pick up something at Eglinton and Bermondsey. So you take the bus to Eglinton, transfer to the frequent Eglinton Bus 4 stops to Bermondsey. Grab what you want, jump on the Eglinton bus bac, and then on another Don Mills bus to York Mills. How does Presto know that the tap on at Eglinton/Bermondsey is a continued trip, rather than a return trip?

Without tap-off on buses it's impossible. And even with tap-off, it's a programming nightmare.

Montreal has not introduced 2-hour fares on their system, despite the Opus card. The transfer is good for 2-hours, but you can't reuse it on the same bus line, or re-enter the Metro. I can only assume that the concept of short-turns doesn't exist there (I certainly don't remember short turns in Montreal, unless the bus broke down!). I'd love to see more details about how transfers work there ... I assume there are many ways to game the system.

In Toronto not re-entering the subway system would be an odd restriction - there are trips that are faster to take 2 subways, and a bus/streetcar in the middle. Davisville to Dupont station is one. Greenwood to Leslie is another Though offhand, I can't think of one where you'd have to use the subway turnstiles.

 

[MetroMan]

Presto's confusing rollout got me in shit today. I boarded at Spadina, tapping my Presto card, then changed at King. A pair of fare inspectors got on at York. I told them I paid with Presto. They asked me for my transfer. After some discussion, they said they'd "let me off with a warning". Yeah, they can go F themselves. I paid my fare.

Aren't fare inspectors supposed to carry Presto readers? How would I know to take a transfer? I understand that there's a transition going on but at the very least, inspectors should all be equipped to check if a Presto card was used.

 

[PinkLucy]

^^^ And that's why I take a transfer, just in case. I can't be bothered with the hassle, whatever their confusing rule is.

 

[nfitz]

Presto's confusing rollout got me in shit today. I boarded at Spadina, tapping my Presto card, then changed at King. A pair of fare inspectors got on at York. I told them I paid with Presto. They asked me for my transfer. After some discussion, they said they'd "let me off with a warning". Yeah, they can go F themselves. I paid my fare.

You broke clear rules, and they should go fuck themselves?

That's a little precious isn't it?

We've been discussing whether or not one can get away with not taking a transfer, and then be inspected on the same vehicle. No one has ever suggested you can transfer and not take a transfer!

 

[MetroMan]

I haven't been following this discussion. My post was put up with no context to that discussion.

504 is a Proof of Payment route. I had a Proof of Payment. They accepted my payment, they should be able to verify it.

Good luck explaining those rules to visitors to the city when residents are confused by them.

 

[nfitz]

504 is a Proof of Payment route. I had a Proof of Payment. They accepted my payment, they should be able to verify it.

And yet you broke very clear rules. The rules clearly say "Customers using PRESTO get a transfer from the Fare and Transfer machine when they tap. Always take a transfer when you pay your fare."

You were ignorant of the rules - so despite breaking the rules, you simply got a warning, rather than a fine. Now you know the rules.

But how does your ignorance justify defending what you did? You were clearly in the wrong. Fair enough, you didn't know. Now you do. But why start swearing about it? Why not take some personal responsibility for your own ignorance.

If you were on the same Flexity vehicle you'd purchased your fare on with your PrestoCard, I can see that you might have a point. But you weren't.

 

[Megaton327]

And yet you broke very clear rules. The rules clearly say "Customers using PRESTO get a transfer from the Fare and Transfer machine when they tap. Always take a transfer when you pay your fare."

You were ignorant of the rules - so despite breaking the rules, you simply got a warning, rather than a fine. Now you know the rules.

But how does your ignorance justify defending what you did? You were clearly in the wrong. Fair enough, you didn't know. Now you do. But why start swearing about it? Why not take some personal responsibility for your own ignorance.

If you were on the same Flexity vehicle you'd purchased your fare on with your PrestoCard, I can see that you might have a point. But you weren't.

Can you cite exactly which section of TTC By-law No. 1 he violated? I'm eager to hear that, because from reading through it I can see absolutely nothing that says that is an offense. The fare inspectors were in the wrong. If they don't have presto readers, that's their problem.

TTC By-law No. 1

1. Definitions

1.1 In this by-law, unless the context otherwise requires:
f) “fare” means the amount to be paid for travel on the transit system as determined by the Commissioners of the TTC as amended from time to time;
g) “fare media” means any ticket, token, pass, transfer or other fare media issued by and acceptable to the TTC, and includes, without limitation, an electronic fare card, any single or multi ride ticket, a day pass, a family pass, a weekly pass, a monthly pass, a U pass, or any period pass.

2. Requirement to Pay Fare - Conditions of Use

2.1 No person shall travel or attempt to travel on the transit system or enter a fare paid area, or attempt to enter a fare paid area without paying the appropriate fare:
a) Where the amount of the fare charged for passage on the transit system or entry to a fare paid area is disputed, the passenger shall pay the amount requested by a proper authority;
b) A passenger who refuses to pay the amount of fare requested by a proper authority shall be refused passage on the transit system or into the fare paid area.

2.6 When requested to do so by a proper authority, a person travelling on the transit system shall immediately surrender for inspection the fare media, an identification card or photo identification card under which the person is travelling.

1.1g: Presto is an electronic farecard, and it is acceptable to the TTC as trivially evidenced by the Presto readers they have in stations and on vehicles and by being listed on their website under fare prices e.g. adult $2.80.

2.1: He paid his fare by tapping on the flexity. a) The fare amount is not in dispute, as he is in agreement with proper authorities e.g. adult $2.80, and he has paid it by tapping using a valid piece of fare media. b) He is not refusing to pay the amount of fare requested, it has been paid. This can be proven in court per the transaction history on the presto website.

2.6: He surrendered his presto card for inspection, that being the fare media under which he was travelling.

Based on the above it looks like he did everything required of him by law, the fare inspectors were harassing him with no grounds. Please be sure to educate me on section of the by-law he was breaking as your comment so clearly states to be a fact.

 

[nfitz]

1.1g. "or other fare media issued by and acceptable to the TTC". TTC has made it clear, that a Presto card in itself isn't acceptable as proof of payment when you transfer vehicles. In fact, if you apply 2.12 and 2.10 strictly, you can't even use a Presto receipt as a transfer!

They've also made it clear that Presto isn't a valid fare media on non-Presto vehicles.

 

[Megaton327]

1.1g. "or other fare media issued by and acceptable to the TTC". TTC has made it clear, that a Presto card in itself isn't acceptable as proof of payment when you transfer vehicles. In fact, if you apply 2.12 and 2.10 strictly, you can't even use a Presto receipt as a transfer!

They've also made it clear that Presto isn't a valid fare media on non-Presto vehicles.

Not legally. 1.1g says "or other fare media issued by and acceptable to the TTC". It does not say acceptable to the TTC in certain contexts on certain vehicles in certain situations, it says acceptable to the TTC. The TTC accepts Presto.

2.10 and 2.12 also have nothing to do with this situation. Not sure if you're reading a different copy of the bylaw.

 

[NotMathematical]

The question is, how do you design the algorithm, particularly when you only know the tap-on location.

Say you start your trip at Finch station, and you go to King station. But you stop at Eglinton to buy something particular. How does Presto know the difference between a return trip starting at Davisville,and a continuation of the trip.

Even on buses, if it knows direction. Let's say you normally take the Don Mills bus from O'Connor to York Mills. But you have to pick up something at Eglinton and Bermondsey. So you take the bus to Eglinton, transfer to the frequent Eglinton Bus 4 stops to Bermondsey. Grab what you want, jump on the Eglinton bus bac, and then on another Don Mills bus to York Mills. How does Presto know that the tap on at Eglinton/Bermondsey is a continued trip, rather than a return trip?

Without tap-off on buses it's impossible. And even with tap-off, it's a programming nightmare.

Montreal has not introduced 2-hour fares on their system, despite the Opus card. The transfer is good for 2-hours, but you can't reuse it on the same bus line, or re-enter the Metro. I can only assume that the concept of short-turns doesn't exist there (I certainly don't remember short turns in Montreal, unless the bus broke down!). I'd love to see more details about how transfers work there ... I assume there are many ways to game the system.

In Toronto not re-entering the subway system would be an odd restriction - there are trips that are faster to take 2 subways, and a bus/streetcar in the middle. Davisville to Dupont station is one. Greenwood to Leslie is another Though offhand, I can't think of one where you'd have to use the subway turnstiles.

Sydney's Opal Card has a 1 hour period that allows for free trips during that period, as long as you board the same mode of transportation (Bus,Ferry) within that hour. That's one way.

 

[vaas]

A quote from the faq section of the presto ttc website.

"If your trip requires a transfer, pick up a paper transfer from the machine after passing through the turnstile. Standard TTC transfer rules apply."
and
"In the subway, tap your card on a PRESTO card reader and proceed through the turnstile. If transferring, please take a paper transfer from the transfer machine."

http://www.getpres.to/is-presto-right-for-me/

 

[NotMathematical]

The TTC PoP video tells you to get a transfer after you tap your card, and keep it for the duration of your trip. Metrolinx/PRESTOq, says its optional, you only need it if transferring to another route. Their PRESTO CSAs also told me that. And as for the inspection scanners, a TTC TSO twetted that they have them for use. Yet people are getting tickets and warnings. There is obviously lack of communication and training from both the TTC and Metrolinx. Yet PRESTO wanted to emphasize on Customer Service for wave one.(see Presto on TTC update,2014). Oh the sweet irony...

Moral of the story: Always get a transfer. Trust the transit agency.

 

[nfitz]

Not legally. 1.1g says "or other fare media issued by and acceptable to the TTC". It does not say acceptable to the TTC in certain contexts on certain vehicles in certain situations, it says acceptable to the TTC. The TTC accepts Presto.

TTC has clearly stated they don't accept Presto on non-Presto enabled vehicles.

2.10 and 2.12 also have nothing to do with this situation. Not sure if you're reading a different copy of the bylaw.

Not directly. But combined they say you can only get a transfer after paying with cash, ticket, or token. This means, a transfer obtained from using an electronic card, like Presto, can't be used. This implies that TTC is breaking their own rules by giving transfers to those who use Presto cards. Thus even if I'm correct that you could be fined for not taking a transfer when transferring to a non-Presto vehicle - you could probably challenge it, as the way that TTC wants you transfer violates By-Law 1.

The big takeaway, is that By-Law 1 needs a major revision in this area.

And as for the inspection scanners, a TTC TSO twetted that they have them for use. Yet people are getting tickets and warnings.

People are getting tickets?

It's entirety possible that the few inspectors assigned to Flexity cars do have the scanners. But there's no point in giving them to those on 501, 502, 503, and 504, given that you are not allowed to transfer to those routes without taking a transfer.

 

[Megaton327]

TTC has clearly stated they don't accept Presto on non-Presto enabled vehicles.

Irrelevant. Like I said the bylaw does not differentiate based on context. If the TTC accepts Presto anywhere, the TTC accepts Presto, period. That's the wording of the bylaw.

Not directly. But combined they say you can only get a transfer after paying with cash, ticket, or token. This means, a transfer obtained from using an electronic card, like Presto, can't be used. This implies that TTC is breaking their own rules by giving transfers to those who use Presto cards. Thus even if I'm correct that you could be fined for not taking a transfer when transferring to a non-Presto vehicle - you could probably challenge it, as the way that TTC wants you transfer violates By-Law 1.

Ah, you mean 2.11. I actually just realized that technically they refer to the slip printed by these machines as a POP receipt, not a transfer, so technically none of those sections apply.

 

[nfitz]

Irrelevant. Like I said the bylaw does not differentiate based on context. If the TTC accepts Presto anywhere, the TTC accepts Presto, period. That's the wording of the bylaw.

That is not the wording of the bylaw - I don't see the wording "anywhere" anywhere. That's your interpretation. If your interpretation was true, then you could board or transfer to a downtown express using only a Metropass, rather than paying the surcharge. Or perhaps you think that there's nothing in the By-laws that force you to pay a surcharge on the downtown express lines?

Ah, you mean 2.11. I actually just realized that technically they refer to the slip printed by these machines as a POP receipt, not a transfer, so technically none of those sections apply.

Actually all of 2.10 to 2.12. Yes, 2.11 as well.

That's probably why they do refer it as a receipt instead of transfer. Which means there's no reference to POP receipts in the bylaws. Doesn't that mean if you try and use one at all to enter a vehicle without paying, you are breaking the by-laws?