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Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

rbt said:
Presto Ottawa is Open Payment, Compass in Vancouver is open payment, Oyster in London is (very soon) open payment. Tim Cards, Starbucks cards, etc. also tend to be OpenPayment.

There is a good chance you've already got 3 or more cards in your wallet which understand OpenPayment.

It's a standardized communication mechanism between card and terminal, vendors, and a standardized account numbering system. It is NOT a card or a restriction on who issues cards. You don't need to be a bank and most of the organizations issuing open payment based cards are not banks.

It's everything we learned by implementing Oyster and Octopus cards, and everything banks learned with systems like Interac all rolled into one convenient to implement package that everybody can use; except Metrolinx who decided to go off and create their own thing instead.
Click to expand...

I think there might be some confusion between what is being thrown around as the concept of "Open Payments", where contactless credit and debit cards are used, and the Open Payment Initiative, which is a standard used between the software on the register and the card reader/processor unit.

Within transit, the concept of accepting open payments as you mentioned is being rolled out across some major systems, and some already have it. The difference between a closed and open system is that in a closed system, only fare media specific to the transit agency, for example a PRESTO, Oyster, Charlie, Octopus, or Clipper cards can be used with the contactless entry/POP system (other contact media, such as magnetic one use tickets, may also be available but these are not usually contactless). In an open system, each card reader is connected just like a normal POS terminal, and will charge any contactless payment card (payWave, PayPass and Flash) that is compatible with the system.

This doesn't mean that your Tim Card can be used to "Tap onto Transit". The only cards that can be used with the transit oriented definition of open payments ARE issued by banks, they are just the newer, RFID enabled cards. VISA and MasterCard have been doing it for a few years, Interac more recently. This doesn't restrict the transit operator from continuing to offer their own card though, similar to the fact that although Tim's takes debit, credit and cash, they also offer a "closed payment" solution, the Tim Card and it is popular enough. Credit and Debit cards also have some drawbacks when it comes to transit, for instance some systems (including London for the time being) can't handle using them for transfers or monthly passes, and they can't be used for volume discounts. Transfers and discounts are technology issues that will be solved over time, but monthly passes are likely a far way away. Just like Tim's offers the Tim card among other "open" options, some people will prefer to continue to use the PRESTO card or will have to for monthly passes.

There is no existing "Open" transit payments solutions. There are companies, like Cubic, that offer pre-built, tested solutions for contactless transit fare processing that support credit and debit cards, but they still require massive outlays of infrastructure to support the back-end handling of transfers, accounts and propriety cards for monthly passes. Although Metrolinx may have not gone with an existing solutions provider, there is no national or international standard for transit fare processing beyond debit and credit cards, which are just an overlay on an existing system.

Presto 1.0 is not compatible with Credit or Debit cards ("Open Payments") for a variety of reasons. As well as the equipment not supporting it, the majority of the bus fare transaction processors (BFTPs) are not networked in real time, they are only synced when in the garage. This is the reason for the 24 hour delay loading a card with money from online. Presto 2.0, as rolled out in Ottawa, does have equipment that will support open payments and is internet connected through the existing Clever Devices ASA/bus management system. This solves two problems, one it allows for theoretically instant loading of money onto a card when or if the back end is built out to support it, and two it allows for external methods of payment. At this time however, the system will does not accept open payments. I can confirm that the device detects and rejects my VISA card. Presto 2.0 also uses new cards which are more flexible in what they can store.

In the limited trials of accepting Credit/Debit through the PRESTO system in the TTC that exists now, it is comparatively easy to begin accepting payments. The fixed readers are already permanently networked, and since they are newer they support the wireless standards used by the banking industry as well as the ones used by PRESTO. It is only a matter of running software to allow the units to process payments, similar to a vending machine that supports the same with minimal back end required.

Overall, there will be people who want or need to use a PRESTO card in e-purse mode for the foreseeable future, possibly because they do not have a card compatible with open payments, due to lack of a back account or credit card. The PRESTO system isn't off the shelf, but there are no true options that are, all would require building a custom back end. It probably should have been built to support contactless credit/debit from the beginning however, since the TTC and other have always made it clear that is an objective of theirs.
NFC capability in cell phones is also becoming more and more widespread. This could be used in two ways, as a direct replacement for the PRESTO card using a PRESTO app, or as a Credit/debit using an app such as Google Wallet, although it is not available in Canada. Although some dumb decisions were made, PRESTO 2.0 should be the system that the GTA was looking for 3-5 years ago, and it's eventual deployment should last for years to come.

Wow, that was a big first post!
 
Catenary said:
Wow, that was a big first post!
Click to expand...

And a great one! Welcome!

As for scrapping Presto, that's just one of Dim Tim Teabag Hudak's bright ideas. Spend even more money to replace a solid (and needed) plan to roll out a multi-agency fare card that was botched in it's implementation. (Botched in the same way that eHealth - electronic, universal health records is excellent policy, but botched in its early days).
 
Great post Catenary!

I certainly understand the need for a different Presto 1.0 vs Presto 2.0 machine, because 2.0 does a lot more. What I don't understand though is the need for 1.0 and 2.0 cards. It seems to be like more forethought should have been put into the cards used for Presto 1.0, so that they would work with both Presto 1.0 and Presto 2.0 machines. Likewise, Presto 2.0 cards should be able to work on Presto 1.0 machines.

I'm in a somewhat unique position, because I take transit relatively frequently in both Ottawa and the GTA (that group is probably less than a hundred people). I can't use my Presto 1.0 card in Ottawa, but at the same time, if I were to get a Presto 2.0 card, I wouldn't be able to use it on GO for the next few years at least.

If making the Presto card standard across versions 1 and 2 isn't possible, shouldn't there be some way of accepting 1.0 cards on 2.0 machines? It's called legacy support. Heck, even Microsoft is better at supporting previous software iterations, and they suck at that!

I can foresee this becoming a pretty big problem when GO goes to upgrade to 2.0. You're going to have a boatload of people who have version 1.0 cards who are now going to have to upgrade their cards, while only getting nominally more functionality. Too much pain vs not enough gain.
 
Catenary said:
Presto 1.0 is not compatible with Credit or Debit cards ("Open Payments") for a variety of reasons. As well as the equipment not supporting it, the majority of the bus fare transaction processors (BFTPs) are not networked in real time, they are only synced when in the garage. This is the reason for the 24 hour delay loading a card with money from online. Presto 2.0, as rolled out in Ottawa, does have equipment that will support open payments and is internet connected through the existing Clever Devices ASA/bus management system. This solves two problems, one it allows for theoretically instant loading of money onto a card when or if the back end is built out to support it, and two it allows for external methods of payment. At this time however, the system will does not accept open payments. I can confirm that the device detects and rejects my VISA card. Presto 2.0 also uses new cards which are more flexible in what they can store.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the informative post Catenary. The paragraph above made me confused. I didn't know what the "Clever Devices ASA" system was but I Googled it, and it looks like some kind of GPS connectivity and tracking system that Ottawa is installing on it's fleet. Is it internet capable too?

From how I interpret what you worte, you are saying the lack of implementation of this system (or one like it) is the explanation as to why PRESTO requires 24 hours (or really until start of service on the following day) to recognize balances loaded on-line, as it cannot pass them through to buses until they go to the garage. I understand that and that has been offered as an explanation in the GTA by PRESTO as well, but it doesn't make sense. In the GTA we have many PRESTO devices that are connected to the network 24/7 at GO Transit stations. I can tap-on, board a GO train, go to the PRESTO website on my phone, and see the fare deducted from my e-purse, even before I get to my desitnation and tap-off (there's an average 30 minute delay.) The fact that I cannot load my card before leaving my home/office to make a trip, and then have it available a few minutes later when I get to Union Station, I see as an uneccesary inconvenience. It can't just be about buses going back to the garage. Even when I call customer service, they have said they cannot see the balance update until the next day. I am happy to accept there is a technical explanation for why, or even just "it costs too much" but as far as I know, PRESTO won't admit it or explain it. As you seem more knowledgable, I am hoping you can shed some light on this.
 
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gweed123 said:
You're going to have a boatload of people who have version 1.0 cards who are now going to have to upgrade their cards, while only getting nominally more functionality. Too much pain vs not enough gain.
Click to expand...
Bear in mind that they cards have expiry dates anyway. People will be replacing their cards a bit early but they would have been replacing them anyway.
 
gweed123 said:
I can't use my Presto 1.0 card in Ottawa, but at the same time, if I were to get a Presto 2.0 card, I wouldn't be able to use it on GO for the next few years at least.
Click to expand...
My understanding is that the Presto 1.0 cards do work with Presto 2.0 devices. Aren't the devices at College and Dundas Presto 2.0 devices?

I thought the inoperability between the GTA and Ottawa was simply that the back ends weren't linked yet.

gweed123 said:
I can foresee this becoming a pretty big problem when GO goes to upgrade to 2.0. You're going to have a boatload of people who have version 1.0 cards who are now going to have to upgrade their cards, while only getting nominally more functionality. Too much pain vs not enough gain.
Click to expand...
I expect most would simply just use 1.0 cards until they expire.
 
ShonTron said:
And a great one! Welcome!

As for scrapping Presto, that's just one of Dim Tim Teabag Hudak's bright ideas. Spend even more money to replace a solid (and needed) plan to roll out a multi-agency fare card that was botched in it's implementation. (Botched in the same way that eHealth - electronic, universal health records is excellent policy, but botched in its early days).
Click to expand...

I think we can all agree that PRESTO is a solid plan, but that 1.0 was flawed in some small but key areas. I don't think replacement at this point would be cost effective by any means, unless Ottawa discovers another flaw that causes them to reject the system next spring. I think at that point the calls to start anew would be hard to resist, especially since Ottawa would be working on their own then.

Jonny5 said:
Thank you for the informative post Catenary. The paragraph above made me confused. I didn't know what the "Clever Devices ASA" system was but I Googled it, and it looks like some kind of GPS connectivity and tracking system that Ottawa is installing on it's fleet. Is it internet capable too?

From how I interpret what you worte, you are saying the lack of implementation of this system (or one like it) is the explanation as to why PRESTO requires 24 hours (or really until start of service on the following day) to recognize balances loaded on-line, as it cannot pass them through to buses until they go to the garage. I understand that and that has been offered as an explanation in the GTA by PRESTO as well, but it doesn't make sense. In the GTA we have many PRESTO devices that are connected to the network 24/7 at GO Transit stations. I can tap-on, board a GO train, go to the PRESTO website on my phone, and see the fare deducted from my e-purse, even before I get to my desitnation and tap-off (there's an average 30 minute delay.) The fact that I cannot load my card before leaving my home/office to make a trip, and then have it available a few minutes later when I get to Union Station, I see as an uneccesary inconvenience. It can't just be about buses going back to the garage. Even when I call customer service, they have said they cannot see the balance update until the next day. I am happy to accept there is a technical explanation for why, or even just "it costs too much" but as far as I know, PRESTO won't admit it or explain it. As you seem more knowledgable, I am hoping you can shed some light on this.
Click to expand...

The Clever Devices system manages a variety of bus functions, the most visible of which is the Automated Stop Announcement (ASA) system (TTC calls it SVASAS, surface vehicle ASA system, since the subways are different, and based on the contracts I'm not sure what company programmed it). The system also has GPS for fleet tracking and 560560, the automated SMS based next bus system. If you want a demo, you can try 560560 anywhere, just text "3023" to "560560" and follow the prompts. Props to whoever can figure out what stop that is first! Visibly, the system is the screen that displays the route number, time and next stop (very similar to the TTC), speakers in the ceiling, and a roughly ten inch touch screen mounted to the fare box that shows a GPS map of the route and allows driver control. Behind the scenes there is a standard Ethernet based LAN on board, with a Telus cellular modem, and their bill runs about $2 mil a year for the Telus service. Every bus in the system has the system installed.

Each of the Presto readers is integrated into this onboard LAN. Each reader has a simple Ethernet and power connection, allowing it network access. Unlike GTA systems where the driver has a PRESTO unit with controls, the PRESTO unit on OC Transpo buses is by the door and has no buttons (like some GTA systems have in addition to the Driver's unit), and the driver can access it using the existing Clever Devices touchscreen. The articulated buses and double deckers that have rear door entry also have readers at the back, but for example and error reading a card on one of them would not pop up on the driver's screen like an error at the front one would, and you couldn't do any other override functions. So overall the bus has it's own inter connected network just like you have at home, with some more rugged equipment

You don't need to have a complete bus tracking/ASA system to connect the readers to the internet, since the readers could have their own cellular radios. Since the more full featured always connected systems like Ottawa has are going to be more common as ASA systems are mandated, it would make sense to integrate them in most cases. As far as I am aware Ottawa is the first to have done so.

The issue with connected readers being delayed is likely a programming one (this is basically my speculation). Since most of the readers (the bus ones) are set to update daily, the system is probably programmed to process the web reloads once a day and add them to the database all at once, and then push this new database to all of the fixed readers and garages during the night. The database would then be available to customer service as well. The readers on the other hand were probably programmed to push data instantly, since it would be much simpler process than routinely updating the entire database and sending that update to every device on the network every time a card is reloaded. Unfortunately this database push is probably fairly deeply integrated into the system, hence the problems changing it. This is my guess for why Metrolinx doesn't say much about it, since it would only appear to be another major flaw in their system, and they're already catching flack for plenty of other things.

Although it does seem like a big hole, it is important to compare PRESTO to some of the "off the shelf" options everyone likes to talk about. TFL's Oyster card is based on the Cubic system, which is widely used. When I was there in 2009, in order to add a balance I had to indicate on the web form exactly which tube station I would be going to the next time I rode transit. There is no way to update on a bus, and the reload expires after only three days. This of course greatly simplifies the system on their end, since they only have to push data to one station. The difference in London is that every station has Ticket Vending Machines where the cards can be loaded, as well as most corner stores have a device similar to the OLG terminals at the cash to do reload cards instantly. In London, Oyster cards are also sold empty by a box on the wall. Insert coins, take the empty card, load it at a TVM. So by comparison the fixed operating parts of PRESTO begin to look better in this regard, it is the non fixed things like more machines or reloading options that hurt the system by comparison.

nfitz said:
My understanding is that the Presto 1.0 cards do work with Presto 2.0 devices. Aren't the devices at College and Dundas Presto 2.0 devices?

I thought the inoperability between the GTA and Ottawa was simply that the back ends weren't linked yet.

I expect most would simply just use 1.0 cards until they expire.
Click to expand...

I think Presto 2.0 is a new back end, hence the interoperability issues. Once PRESTO 2.0 rolls out across the GTA, they will all be on one system with Ottawa. The College & Dundas readers might be 2.0 capable, but they would be connected to the 1.0 back end for the mean time. I think the difference in the cards between 1.0 and 2.0 is storage capacity, but I can't remember.

I should probably also say that I am not an insider in any way, all of what I know comes from closely following publicly available information as well as some small bits of research into what's going on. There may be some factual inaccuracies, and most of the future facing statements were just speculation as I noted.

EDIT: I mentioned how London has devices like OLG terminals to load up the cards, and that appears to be exactly like what the operators are looking for:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra...th-the-700-million-cost-say-transit-operators
 
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W. K. Lis said:
Presto has a report on the costs, from this link.
Click to expand...

Yup. All ancient systems designed before there was a standard defined. Chicago Card ($500M) is the only real comparable in that list; and Presto's $700M does not include the cost of TTCs current metrocard, daypass, etc. (saying historical costs not included is a cop-out except for station adjustments (network/electricity installation to fare-gate locations).


A much better comparison would be Vancouver's Compass Card which started 5 years after Presto and is due to launch next year. It supports most of the tricks the TTC/GO wanted but for marketing purposes they're going to make it work like Oyster (blank card, load value, use for trips, ...). They make a a good chunk of profit on the interest on positive card balances, so they have strong interest in you carrying a positive balance with them.

It looks like Compass is going to come in at a total of about $250M which includes maintenance (30 years?) and includes station modifications for installing faregates (I've read $100M) which Vancouver did not have previously (running network/power conduit through concrete is expensive).


Any way you cut it, Presto is a minimum of $200M overpriced and Ottawa's installation isn't going very well.
 
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Catenary said:
I think Presto 2.0 is a new back end, hence the interoperability issues. Once PRESTO 2.0 rolls out across the GTA, they will all be on one system with Ottawa. The College & Dundas readers might be 2.0 capable, but they would be connected to the 1.0 back end for the mean time. I think the difference in the cards between 1.0 and 2.0 is storage capacity, but I can't remember.
Click to expand...

There are slight differences in the cards in the sense that the way the packets are sent/processed from card to reader are rearranged to allow for faster throughput, and that the 2.0 cards broadcast more information, but in the grand scheme of things that's hardly a reason to prevent a 2.0 card from being read on a 1.0 reader and vice versa. But yes, the main differences are in the back-end - and in that there are currently two completely independent systems running separately from each other. They are currently building the links between the two back-ends as well as the ways for the systems to handle the others cards, and at some point next year you will be able to use a 1.0 card in on a 2.0 system and vice versa.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
royalrivers said:
Guelph has a tender out to upgrade its fare boxes / install Automatic Stop Announcements etc etc etc After running through the tender, I can't tell if this technology can utilize Presto in the future...can someone who knows technical transit stuff see if this is included in this tender? http://guelph.ca/uploads/tenders/13-032/SPECIFICATIONS.pdf
Click to expand...

It isn't, the tender specifically indicates that the existing GFI fareboxes will remain, and that the new on-board technology will interface with them.

In the meantime, Grand River Transit is still evaluating its options for smart card systems. They've not committed to Presto specifically. The timeline is roll-out by 2016-2017, as smart cards are required for the LRT system that is targeted for 2017 completion.
 
Yeah I don't think anybody was quite expecting the level of demand for the 10 000 cards they were releasing. They had to add 2000 more just to cover the days they claimed they'd be out at other stations giving them away.
 
I'm surprised to notice in the December 19, 2012 TTC minutes that the TTC are reviewing the use of Presto on the Toronto Island ferries. I'm surprised there was no report about this at the time. Looks like one of the new TTC councillors actually made a sensible suggestion!


Great idea! I'd be much more likely to jump on a ferry on a whim, if I didn't have to worry about buying a ticket at the dock.
 
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