GTHA Transit Fare Integration

[flyinggoats]

After years of paying lip service to "fare integration", they are still defining the scope and surveying different types of fares. It's ridiculous how slowly this is progressing. I feel like that presentation represents less than a week of research done, and they've been talking about this for at least two years.

 

[Adjei]

The provincial agency is proposing that “distance-based fares” be considered for all modes of public transit, except buses. It is also suggesting that a regional fare system take into account the length of a trip and the type of transit being used.

Rather than paying different fares to different transit agencies in the region, passengers would pay one fare per trip under an integrated regime

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra...x-proposes-integrated-fares-for-the-gtha.html

 

[Adjei]

The impact of fare integration would be felt most by the TTC. Unlike GO transit, which uses distance-based fares, the TTC and most other systems in the region have flat fare systems. York Region is an exception. Its buses have a zoned price structure.

TTC Deputy CEO and chief customer officer Chris Upfold said there are unanswered financial questions about fare integration.

“You’re on a TTC bus and you cross Steeles into York region. You immediately pay a double fare,” Upfold said. “And TTC get a fare and York get a fare. If one of us no longer gets a fare, where does that money then come from?”

The impact of fare integration on the TTC hinges on that money, according to Upfold.

“I don’t believe it’s the TTC’s responsibility to subsidize that,” he said.

McCuaig said Metrolinx is coming at fare integration from a revenue neutral position. But it will test different scenarios.

“We start off with an approach that looks at revenue neutrality. But then if we make an adjustment where there’s a change in who is contributing -- whether that’s governments or customers -- if we make those changes, how does that impact,” he said.


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra...x-proposes-integrated-fares-for-the-gtha.html

 

[ssiguy2]

Let's hope GO doesn't have a say in a distance based system or Toronto is about to get screwed. GO is supposedly distance based but is completely warped to benefit the 905 and discourage Torontonians from taking it. Seriously, Union to the EX is $5.30 but if you are going all the way to Burlington it's $10.60.................that's about quadruple the price on a km travelled basis.

I also don't understand how they would do distance based but exclude buses? Most travel in the GTA is still done by the buses. In the GTHA buses are still the backbone of the system. I also think basing it on the type of travel method is also stupid. If you are going from A to B who cares if you take an regular/articulated/express/double decker/local/GO bus or streetcar/LRT/RT/subway/commuter rail? The technology shouldn't matter if it is truly a distanced based system but then again Metrolinx has allowed GO's supposed distance based system to continue so fairness doesn't seem to be at the top of their agenda.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm no fan of fare by distance, but if it must be implemented, I think the most fair way to do it would be to put all the PRESTO fares into a big pool, and divide up the fares based on what percentage of rides they carry. So if the TTC carried 40% of transit trips in Ontario, then TTC would get 40% of revenues from PRESO.

 

[nfitz]

I'm no fan of fare by distance, but if it must be implemented, I think the most fair way to do it would be to put all the PRESTO fares into a big pool, and divide up the fares based on what percentage of rides they carry. So if the TTC carried 40% of transit trips in Ontario, then TTC would get 40% of revenues from PRESO.

Seems a quick way to get any smaller agency to withdraw from Presto.

 

[wopchop]

I'm no fan of fare by distance, but if it must be implemented, I think the most fair way to do it would be to put all the PRESTO fares into a big pool, and divide up the fares based on what percentage of rides they carry. So if the TTC carried 40% of transit trips in Ontario, then TTC would get 40% of revenues from PRESO.

This doesn't take into account what sort of capital or operating expenditures that the agency must spend to carry those 40% of transit trips.

 

[Filip]

The only way I see this working is for Metrolinx to absorb every regional transit agency under its umbrella.

There is too much 'me first' regionally for a successful fare integration project.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The only way I see this working is for Metrolinx to absorb every regional transit agency under its umbrella.

There is too much 'me first' regionally for a successful fare integration project.

I can't imagine them doing that - they don't really have the expertise to run local transit, and unlike GO, it is subsidized by municipal taxation - and that's going to be messy to take over (plus would they really want to take over a form of transit that is subsidy heavy? That's a no win for their bottom line)

AoD

 

[TOareaFan]

The only way I see this working is for Metrolinx to absorb every regional transit agency under its umbrella.

There is too much 'me first' regionally for a successful fare integration project.

I think you have to be careful with that wording......the fact is that each and every transit agency is struggling financially at the very same time they are being asked by the populace to provide more.....so when they hear the words "fare integration" and are, likely painfully aware of the growing sentiment that "crossing borders or changing systems should not lead to a new/double fare" they are all very concerned that they will either be the agency that gets "nothing" for transporting that customer to another system or that both systems will only get half of what they used to get (and really need).

It may come across as "me first" but in the are of fare integration a solution has to be found.

 

[Filip]

But that's exactly the issue - it's part of a bigger problem overall.

All transit agencies in the GTA face similar funding issues, so my proposal isn't for Metrolinx to take over as a supramunicipal agency, but actually upload the responsibility of transit off the municipalities and onto the province.

Cities would pay some sort of taxes to Metrolinx for the management of transit, but the TTC, YRT, etc would remain as operating brands. Sort of how GO Transit is a part of Metrolinx.

Administration, control, etc can be centralized and savings could be found there - but having them all reporting to the same big daddy would make any integration project far easier.

And I strongly disagree the TTC is unique and cannot be handled by a regional agency - ever heard of Transport for London, or Vancouver's regional agency?

 

[BMO]

Seems a quick way to get any smaller agency to withdraw from Presto.

Or a quick way to get a smaller agency to not have to provide service on a particular border route even though the TTC has 15 minute service all day and marginalizes your ridership on the line. Those buses can then go towards improving service on other lines.

 

[jcam]

But that's exactly the issue - it's part of a bigger problem overall.

All transit agencies in the GTA face similar funding issues, so my proposal isn't for Metrolinx to take over as a supramunicipal agency, but actually upload the responsibility of transit off the municipalities and onto the province.

Cities would pay some sort of taxes to Metrolinx for the management of transit, but the TTC, YRT, etc would remain as operating brands. Sort of how GO Transit is a part of Metrolinx.

Administration, control, etc can be centralized and savings could be found there - but having them all reporting to the same big daddy would make any integration project far easier.

And I strongly disagree the TTC is unique and cannot be handled by a regional agency - ever heard of Transport for London, or Vancouver's regional agency?

I really think that fare integration is a first step to this time of eventual upload. A couple of my colleagues who've been advising on transit for decades also think that's the long game, at least in the sense of centralized fare collection, planning & prioritization, etc.

 

[Napoleon]

Well one definite truth is that fare-by-distance cannot be implemented until every TTC vehicle is fully capable of accepting Presto or other temporary fare-by-distance/electronic fare media. Additionally ever single subway turnstile will have to be replaced with check-in/check-out gates. Also POP will have to be implemented on the full system. So, with all reality, the TTC at least is quite a way off from real fare by distance.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Well one definite truth is that fare-by-distance cannot be implemented until every TTC vehicle is fully capable of accepting Presto or other temporary fare-by-distance/electronic fare media. Additionally ever single subway turnstile will have to be replaced with check-in/check-out gates. Also POP will have to be implemented on the full system. So, with all reality, the TTC at least is quite a way off from real fare by distance.

It's going to be a done deal by mid-2017 - not that long a time when the planning horizon is 10, 15, 30 years from now.

In general I agree with the principal of fare by distance, but one has to be cognizant of the impact it may have on the poor. It will also be interesting to see how it will affect travel patterns as well.

AoD