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Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

Duck said:
Kitchener's too? How can you guarantee it? Just wondering.
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Well for one the AODA requires it, and although Metrolinx wont be operating the ION line they are still involved with the majority of the project. Both GO Transit and UPX have the chimes installed, and the ECLRT will have it as well so I dont think they would be stupid enough exclude the ION. So short form answer the AODA requires it, long answer its also for uniformity throughout the province.
 
Amare said:
Well for one the AODA requires it, and although Metrolinx wont be operating the ION line they are still involved with the majority of the project. Both GO Transit and UPX have the chimes installed, and the ECLRT will have it as well so I dont think they would be stupid enough exclude the ION. So short form answer the AODA requires it, long answer its also for uniformity throughout the province.
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I don't think AODA requires use of the TTC chime. Duck was hypothesizing what kind of chime ION will get, not whether it will get a chime at all.
 
Yes exactly - I am HOPING for chimes, but hoping they are not the "TTC" chime. :) nothing against it, I just like variety. Outside of southwestern Ontario, nobody knows what they are, so when you hear it on the DPM for example it's no big deal. But when someone from Kitchener hears it, they instantly recognize it as the sound of Toronto. So it would be nice to have something a bit more unique for the Region if possible. It shouldn't take more than an afternoon for someone at Bombardier to program, so I'd love to see some thought put into it, not just default. I'd offer to do it even. :)
 
Duck said:
Yes exactly - I am HOPING for chimes, but hoping they are not the "TTC" chime. :) nothing against it, I just like variety. Outside of southwestern Ontario, nobody knows what they are, so when you hear it on the DPM for example it's no big deal. But when someone from Kitchener hears it, they instantly recognize it as the sound of Toronto. So it would be nice to have something a bit more unique for the Region if possible. It shouldn't take more than an afternoon for someone at Bombardier to program, so I'd love to see some thought put into it, not just default. I'd offer to do it even. :)
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Perhaps they should use the sound that GO trains use in Kitchener then.
 
Will we see 4407 on Spadina this Sunday when the 510 streetcars go back into service or by the long weekend??

Will we see 4408 here by the long weekend or will it be June??
 
drum118 said:
Will we see 4407 on Spadina this Sunday when the 510 streetcars go back into service or by the long weekend??

Will we see 4408 here by the long weekend or will it be June??
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Whoops drum, this is the forum for Flexity Freedoms!!

You want Flexity Outlook!
 
From The Star, at this link:

TTC issues with Bombardier streetcars also apply to Metrolinx order


Metrolinx says that its LRV test models are about a year behind schedule due to production problems with Bombardier.


The TTC isn’t the only Toronto area transit provider affected by Bombardier’s light rail vehicle manufacturing problems.

Provincial agency Metrolinx has confirmed that the first vehicles in its $770-million order are about a year behind on delivery. Originally expected late last year so Metrolinx could begin testing, they likely won’t arrive until this fall.

“Metrolinx is experiencing similar problems with the quality of light rail car frames assembled in Bombardier’s plant in Mexico,” the agency said on Wednesday.

Its order for 182 LRVs comes with an option to purchase an additional 118 vehicles. The vehicles are slightly different from the TTC’s in that they have a cab on both ends and have doors on both sides. They are expected to furnish the Eglinton-Crosstown, the Finch Ave. West, Sheppard Ave East, Waterloo and the Mississauga-Brampton light rail lines.

The problem with the Metrolinx cars is the same as that described this week by frustrated TTC CEO Andy Byford, who said he wants riders to understand why he can’t put more of the air-conditioned, fully accessible streetcars into service.

The first of the 204 new streetcars — price tag: $1.2 billion — were so flawed that the TTC simply couldn’t risk putting them into service because they would almost certainly break down on Toronto streets, he said.

Parts produced in Mexico were so poorly made that they couldn’t be properly assembled in Bombardier’s Thunder Bay plant, where attempts to rivet badly cut walls and under-frames were rejected by the TTC.

Byford also cited defective laminate, loose screws and faulty electrical connectors among the issues on the new TTC vehicles.

Metrolinx says the initial delay isn’t expected to impact the overall Crosstown schedule, since the LRT isn’t scheduled to open until 2020.

“We haven’t received any light rail vehicles as yet from Bombardier, and we will not accept sub-standard vehicles nor the burden of additional costs,” said Metrolinx.

“Our vehicles team is currently working closely with Bombardier senior management who have taken a number of corrective actions in Mexico,” it said.

Waterloo, which is building its own light rail line, is aware of the issues and is monitoring the situation. But it isn’t expecting to take delivery of any vehicles until next year in advance of a late 2017 opening, said Darshpreet Bhatti, director of rapid transit.

Bombardier spokesman Marc-André Lefebvre said the streetcar quality issues aren’t specific to the company’s Mexican supplier or any other North American plant.

“Yes we have in this case had issues in Thunder Bay, we have had issues in Mexico. But right now the main point for us is that we have been open about these, and now we can clearly say they are items that are in the past. We were working on correcting them. Now they are corrected,” he said, adding that the company is committed to the new delivery schedule that specifies the TTC will have 30 vehicles by the end of this year.

The lessons from the production problems on the TTC vehicles will, said Lefebvre, translate into a smoother experience for Metrolinx.

Mayor John Tory said he expects the TTC CEO and its board chair Josh Colle will register “our pleasure in doing business with a Canadian company but our determination to say they must do better,” when they visit Thunder Bay in June.

“When you take the step of supporting a Canadian company . . . they’ve got to meet the test when it comes to both delivering a quality product and, delivering it on time and on budget,” he said.

How Bombardier got the streetcar order

Files from Jennifer Pagliaro

The TTC's $1.2-billion contract for 204 fully accessible, air-conditioned streetcars was awarded to Bombardier in June 2009.

The TTC board debated whether or not it should exceed the requirement of 25 per cent Canadian parts and labour for provincially funded transit projects. But a consultant suggested that 25 per cent was as much Canadian content as the TTC could mandate without effectively eliminating every company but Bombardier from the bidding.

In the end only two manufacturers bid on the contract — Bombardier and Siemens. The latter company's losing bid was $500 million higher.

The city ended up footing the bill for two-thirds of the cost of the new cars after Ottawa refused to contribute the usual one-third federal funding. The Ontario Liberal government came up with the remaining third.

In 2009, the Toronto Star reported that the first of the new streetcars would arrive in 2012 with the entire order expected by 2018. In reality, the first of new cars went into service on Spadina last year, and the TTC is pushing to have the entire order delivered by a 2019 deadline.

There are supposed to be 30 cars in Toronto running on Spadina, Harbourfront and Bathurst St. by the end of this year.
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Why is there such a price difference in the two orders?

I get that they're two different models, but why such a big discrepancy?

ML - 770Mill/182=4.231 M each
TTC - 1.2Bill/204=5.88 M each

ML's order on the surface seems more complicated (doors on both sides, driver cab on both ends), but I also don't know the exact dimensions of each car either.

It seems the province got a better deal than we did. Just curious why we're paying almost 40% more for a similar vehicle.
 
junior43 said:
Why is there such a price difference in the two orders?

I get that they're two different models, but why such a big discrepancy?

ML - 770Mill/182=4.231 M each
TTC - 1.2Bill/204=5.88 M each

ML's order on the surface seems more complicated (doors on both sides, driver cab on both ends), but I also don't know the exact dimensions of each car either.

It seems the province got a better deal than we did. Just curious why we're paying almost 40% more for a similar vehicle.
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I'm not sure the numbers are all comparable or correct. I did the calc once, based on the original announcements, and the Metrolinx vehicles WERE more expensive. Is one including spare parts and the other isn't?
 
The TTC streetcars have to handle the tight curves and steeper inclines, making them custom made to fit the legacy network.

The Metrolinx light rail vehicles will not be able to do so, are more off-the-self with their network being made to fit the vehicles. Not the other way around.
 
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