Mayor John Tory's Toronto

[OneCity]

. The subway should not come first, not at the cost of the much more urgent Relief Line and its north expansion to Don Mills.

Part of the reason we have "protest" candidates so heavily supported in this City is because of these beliefs or misunderstandings that only Downtown expansion or issues are a "priority" and don't see the benefit in growing together. The City is massive and this type of rhetoric is the fuel driving the protest candidates. Its reverse campaigning.

Our Politics are polluted and we've constantly provoked to take a side and be angry at issues, instead of a positive approach of reaching out to bridge the gaps and differences. The media is Politicized on both sides in this City and unfortunately capitalizes financially off fueling division which hasn't helped. The Ford types are certainly problematic in some respects but these candidates are not the root of problem they are a bi-product of enough voices not being heard or being talked over. If they are even in the picture its a sign we need to do better.

Actually, you don't. Aside from the fact that the re-warding for the 2018 election should shift less of the power imbalance the suburbs has back to denser areas, protest voting is a problem and in sheer defiance of democracy as a whole. Ford was a protest vote. Trump was a protest vote. Protest-voting to fight against a tyrant/idiot being protest-voted into office ensures absolutely no one actually gets whats in their best interests.

While that may be good for Downtown in some respects it doesn't change growing apathetic "protest" Mayoral vote and could make it worse. If the time comes when the unimaus consensus votes from our large inner suburban councils are being trumped by outside areas than we are headed for far greater turbulence. This is good for no one.

The City has been underfunded by upper levels for decades. We need a more united voice to have our needs addressed and the internal banter of priority will only make matters worse. We really need to be more supportive of our various growth needs and differing lifestyles as the City evolves.

 

[steveintoronto]

Voting for Tory (for example) against DoFo isn't a protest, it's supporting a bad alternative to prevent a catastrophe.

What would be shocking is that anyone running against the two with a modicum of integrity and ability would lose. Polls show a 'third candidate' taking equal share of the vote to 'the two'. If Keesmaat can't trounce them, then Toronto deserves what's to come.

 

[salsa]

Perhaps the recent US election is a decent analogy. Few people seemed enthusiastic about Clinton, but she couldn't have been worse than Trump.

But her emails!

 

[steveintoronto]

But her emails!

For the record, she and I never had sex. What was in the emails doesn't count.

 

[MetroMan]

Part of the reason we have "protest" candidates so heavily supported in this City is because of these beliefs or misunderstandings that only Downtown expansion or issues are a "priority" and don't see the benefit in growing together.

There's a reason why downtown is given priority. It's where the largest number of people live, work and spend their time. The city breathes from its downtown. If it's congested, the entire city is affected. I'm not saying that the outer city should be ignored, but we should also not be giving a priority to the smaller parts of the city in detriment to the most dense parts on which those smaller parts depend. That the Relief Line is designed to get people from the outer city to the downtown is a demonstration of that very principle. Yes, we need to build Scarborough transit but it's been shown over and over in studies and in both the TTC and the city's statements that the Relief Line is the most urgent and must be our top priority. It's not an either/or, it's both but in the correct sequence.

 

[MetroMan]

Ok, analogy time!

Let's say you're a businessman. You and your family own an ice cream franchise in Toronto.

Your downtown store is the most frequented by far. It has all the tourists and downtown residents and office workers visiting your store, propping up the franchise. They can barely keep up! There's a permanent lineup out the door and some people just give up and leave. You need another ice cream machine!

Now, your original Scarborough store where you live and where all the kids in the family have their summer jobs is busy too and it looks like in the next couple of years, you're going to have to buy a second ice cream machine there too. But for now, you're managing. It's tight but you can keep up.

Business is growing and opportunities are presenting themselves that you have to take advantage of. But that means investing some money. Your downtown store is thriving and providing the funding to expand elsewhere.

So you have $50K to buy an ice cream machine now and you know that at the current growth, you'll be able to save up for another machine. Do you buy an ice cream machine for the Scarborough store?

...
...
...

Ok, all the family kids work at the Scarborough store and your family is going to be mad at you if you don't buy them a second ice cream machine because they deserve one too. But you'd be pretty darn dumb to let your downtown store collapse or lose out on all that potential by not prioritizing the busiest store. Yes, make a plan to renovate the original store in Scarborough and buy a second ice cream machine, but that's further down the road. Right now, you need to make sure your moneymaker downtown continues to keep the company growing and providing investment cash for the other stores.

 

[OneCity]

Ok, analogy time!

Let's say you're a businessman. You and your family own an ice cream franchise in Toronto.

Your downtown store is the most frequented by far. It has all the tourists and downtown residents and office workers visiting your store, propping up the franchise. They can barely keep up! There's a permanent lineup out the door and some people just give up and leave. You need another ice cream machine!

Now, your original Scarborough store where you live and where all the kids in the family have their summer jobs is busy too and it looks like in the next couple of years, you're going to have to buy a second ice cream machine there too. But for now, you're managing. It's tight but you can keep up.

Business is growing and opportunities are presenting themselves that you have to take advantage of. But that means investing some money. Your downtown store is thriving and providing the funding to expand elsewhere.

So you have $50K to buy an ice cream machine now and you know that at the current growth, you'll be able to save up for another machine. Do you buy an ice cream machine for the Scarborough store?

...
...
...

Ok, all the family kids work at the Scarborough store and your family is going to be mad at you if you don't buy them a second ice cream machine because they deserve one too. But you'd be pretty darn dumb to let your downtown store collapse or lose out on all that potential by not prioritizing the busiest store. Yes, make a plan to renovate the original store in Scarborough and buy a second ice cream machine, but that's further down the road. Right now, you need to make sure your moneymaker downtown continues to keep the company growing and providing investment cash for the other stores.

Well you've certainly made your own cute stacked deck story of a successful Ice cream store that doesn't seem to account for escalating rent, or local competition. But in this story it sounds like business is booming downtown and ill safely assume you would say the bottom line is way larger in the Downtown location. So ill play along

Although the new ice cream maker sounds like a slam dunk at the downtown location but to make the best decision I'd have to consider things like:

• Will the Scarborough location be near the future subway. Will there be a transfer before my location? As that will help determine future growth potential or whether the area will turn into a neglected wasteland or just an inferior Central hub to comparable areas which have successful Ice cream shops in Toronto
  
• With such a booming name in ice cream should I not be expanding the franchise elsewhere?

Ok ok...
That's right i can only buy one machine in this silly game. Then maybe ill sell one business depending on where has the best growth potential which could mean staying at the Scarborough location.

Again the City is far to large for this single area priority nonsense and it will never fly politically no matter how much it makes sense to some. The City is far too neglected thru-out and will either grow together or it will become even more Politically hostile. These downtown first narrative will only lead to Polarized figures and chatter of de-emalgamation. Which may sound good, but will only cause delays and no savings whatsoever.

If we build our City together we just might successful Ice Cream shops in many location's across this big City

 

[zang]

There's a reason why downtown is given priority. It's where the largest number of people live, work and spend their time. The city breathes from its downtown. If it's congested, the entire city is affected. I'm not saying that the outer city should be ignored, but we should also not be giving a priority to the smaller parts of the city in detriment to the most dense parts on which those smaller parts depend.

The additional problem being that the suburbs DO have a lot of money spent on them, but they can't see it because it simply costs more to do things out there. Economy of scale in the dense areas mean that utilities and services are cheaper to run (per person). That's part of the reason the downtown gets de-funded, and why suburbs seem to get all the social programs (as a parent looking for programs for his daughter, this is incredibly frustrating). But there should be political advantages to supporting density. And hey, more than half of the suburbs get their snowy sidewalks cleaned by the city, while my block on Bloor in the core is a nightmare of icy sidewalks until the church next door and the construction properties get off their lazy asses and clean snow promptly. But Scarborough is too good for LRT...

 

[zang]

Again the City is far to large for this single area priority nonsense and it will never fly politically no matter how much it makes sense to some. The City is far too neglected thru-out and will either grow together or it will become even more Politically hostile. These downtown first narrative will only lead to Polarized figures and chatter of de-emalgamation. Which may sound good, but will only cause delays and no savings whatsoever.

I would settle for just equal per-capita spending. But the reality is that more money just comes from downtown anyway. The density of business plus property values makes the core a tax-revenue cash cow. Downtown makes the most money, but seems to get the least money spent on infrastructure and services per person.

 

[OneCity]

I would settle for just equal per-capita spending. But the reality is that more money just comes from downtown anyway. The density of business plus property values makes the core a tax-revenue cash cow. Downtown makes the most money, but seems to get the least money spent on infrastructure and services per person.

That is a very fair statement. And its a completely different one than those who believe we should only build and grow downtown and forget other areas. The City has too many priority needs. Politics at the Provincial level has really let Toronto down by not doing enough.

It's up the the Province and Federal governments to provide that extra funding to the Citys core as they are both massive economic beneficiaries of a thriving downtown Toronto which is flourishing off of its public investments of past decades. That is not the problem of the large inner suburbs and these areas should not be attacked or on their funding commitments from within the City itself. We need a more united voice pointed at those that are responsible and should be doing more. The Province especially the Liberals never had urgency to buy votes Downtown in the past. If anything Downtown councillors should be looking to gain support from its inner suburbs to have more Politcal attention. They have done the opposite in the past.

Scarborough is going to help pay for alot of expensive subway and other transit projects In the core over the next 100 years at the Municipal level. No reason the heart of Scarborough shouldn't be connected in the City's main infrastructure.

Look at it this way. If Scarborough was it's own City the SSE would have been built long ago and DRL long, short and future West line would be paid Municipally without the assistance of Scarborough. In the end supporting the extra costs of the two Scarborough subways will be a wash at worst. The SSE would have most likely been built (quicker, with stops and cheaper) had amalgamation not occurred. We need to support each other and get building before the price escalates further. But the Politics are poisoned and expensive one stop could be the reality here just to move forward.

Forcing a seperate technology and then in turn expecting people to help pay for the other technology was a roll of the dice plan. It failed once and continuing to try that approach is wasting everyones time and money amongst fueling already problematic Political unrest.

The City in the past tried to take the easy way out because of Provincial neglect and lack of expansion planning. There is power in numbers in Provincial politics and Dowtown needs as much support as possible to shake the tree in its direction.

Tory seems to get that.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Scarborough was it's own city within the Metro system up until 1997, and it never got the SSE envisioned, much less funded. One can talk good talk about working together, but when push comes to shove don't go on and on about downtown elitism. Why should the province or the feds pay more if you aren't willing to raise your share of the funding yourself?

AoD

 

[OneCity]

Scarborough was it's own city within the Metro system up until 1997, and it never got the SSE envisioned, much less funded. One can talk good talk about working together, but when push comes to shove don't go on and on about downtown elitism. Why should the province or the feds pay more if you aren't willing to raise your share of the funding yourself?

AoD

It's what was envisioned in Scarborough Council before the TTC streetcar proposal, turned RT and again once the RT came up from replacement it was what was envisioned. Miller choose to roll the dice against the wishes of Scarborough council. Ford took advantage of this support and pocketed it as the clock struck midnight on Transit City. Now you have all Provincial parties, and 95% of Scarborough council wrapped into this support.

Who said Scarborough wouldn't pay their share? I haven't heard one complaint from friends here about the tax for the subway. Most I here is "its about time" and "where the hell are the stops?" Not even sure what you mean be "your share of funding yourself?" and how that applies to where we are. Should we draw a radius around the DRL have local homeowners pay more? Scarborough would have paid their Municipal share for the SSE had the time come. Just like they will help pay for the DRL 1,2,3 and maybe 4 if the Province comes to the table and we can see what percentage is required and our local Politicians do what they did for the SSE.

"Elitism".... For the most part this debate will go nowhere and is a loaded Political statement with some truth and some stretch. I wont get heavy into the media influence because too many posters get upset at the idea our local media is Politicized on both sides. Well they only seem to get upset when the one side is called out. But only one side that is doing the majority of pot stirring on this debate and I will say there are subway "have" Councillors in the City should be more respectful towards other areas. Scarborough councillors are really not causing the same extent of problems for other areas preferences especially against overwhelming support. Call it whatever you want to call it. Some Politicians choose "elitism", I just think there's toxic Politics and narratives being played out and its part of the reason we have ticked off enough unhappy apathetic voters who feel left without a proper voice. And that is how polarized Politicians can be propelled so easily.

 

[JGHali]

Can we please take the Scarborough subway debate back to its dedicated thread?

And FYI, it was Karen Stintz who brought the Line 2 extension to STC forward as a platform for her failed mayoral campaign. Ford was already irrelevant by that point.

 

[OneCity]

Can we please take the Scarborough subway debate back to its dedicated thread?

And FYI, it was Karen Stintz who brought the Line 2 extension to STC forward as a platform for her failed mayoral campaign. Ford was already irrelevant by that point.

Not sure what your "And FYI" has to do with anything I mentioned. As I never once implied Ford created the Line 2 extension that has been supported and rejected in Scarborough a few times over the last 50 years. Ford actually compromised here to get the Sheppard subway supported by McGuinty. What I said was Ford cancelled Transit City at midnight based on the overwhelming support for "subway, subways subways" That support was always ready to be tapped into for SSE, Sheppard and the DRL. Certainly Stintz certainly saw the light of support for the subway that Ford brought but unfortunately for her it wasn't meant to be.

The large support that had been ignored is far out of the bag and Mayor Tory's Toronto is supportive like 99% of all other Scarborough Politicians.

 

[Videodrome]

David Nickle‏@DavidNickle 2m2 minutes ago
Tory repeated his promise to serve another term, and that's it.

Makes sense.