mpd618
Active Member
Most people do drive, but the drive to Toronto that most people make on occasion is so frustrating that "more road" is not terribly appealing. I don't think there's been a poll, but it would be great to see one.
|
|
|
Kitchener to Toronto train service & the tech sector
- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
Most people do drive, but the drive to Toronto that most people make on occasion is so frustrating that "more road" is not terribly appealing. I don't think there's been a poll, but it would be great to see one.
TOareaFan
Superstar
People proposing/advocating transit anywhere other than DT Toronto should not be advocating general polls on the a choice between roads or transit....transit will always lose those votes.
TFC
Active Member
I'm with TOareaFan in stating that if a poll was conducted in KW, yes, the majority would prefer roads over rails. However, I believe that the majority would like transportation options and alternatives. The reason they don't necessarily want rail investment is likely because they've never experienced train travel in Canada, or if they have, it's been too slow and/or not frequent enough. With improved service through Ontario and Canada, I think people will warm up to the idea of rail transportation. As it currently stands, people prefer road investment because it's all they've ever been exposed to.
dunkalunk
Senior Member
The latest figure that I saw for the cost of Highway 7 from Kitchener-Guelph is <$400M. If anyone is able to find a more-recent number from an official source, it would be greatly appreciated. There is staggeringly little information about this project considering that construction is anticipated to start in 2 years.
While there is a general consensus that something needs to be done to improve safety on the Kitchener-Guelph stretch, I think that people would be alright if the project is scaled back from a full freeway for the entire length. There's a lot of pork that can be trimmed from this project and put towards improving rail infrastructure in the parallel corridor.
For example, the section of the planned extension from Breslau to Guelph needs to be a simple expansion of the existing 2-lane highway to 4 (potentially with a median and high-speed roundabouts) instead of building a parallel freeway in a 100m wide Right of Way (to believe it or not accommodate for future expansion past the 30 year horizon).
The 4-level stack interchange (which is expected to cost 1/4 of the total) can also be scaled back. It would be possible to remove one of the flyover ramps while maintaining free-flow of traffic (albeit at a reduced speed) without precluding future construction of the ramp.
What information I can find about the project is contained in a Value-Engineering study given to the Region of Waterloo Planning and Works comittee back in 2011: http://www.regionofwaterloo.ca/en/regionalGovernment/resources/PM2011-0412.pdf
As far as the 401 expansion goes, I can attest that the bottleneck between Sportsworld and Hespeler road needs to be looked at, if only for the reason of installing bus bypass shoulders to reduce delays exiting the region. The Highway 401 Hespeler-Halton project contains two options: an 8-lane option and a 10-lane option with HOV lanes, both of which require a widening of the ROW and bridge replacements. It also includes the reconfiguration of the Highway 6 interchange which I'd also consider to be needed to route traffic away from Morriston. It would be great if an 8-lane option with HOV were to be considered, but I don't hold out that it ever will be. In the end, the HOV lanes would definitely be an asset to buses on this route although variably-priced tolling of the corridor would be my preferred option.
Last edited:
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
What about a scaled-back freeway and a scaled-back rail proposal? It sounds like a cop out both ways - and it is - but I have a feeling that you have to appease the locals with a certain commitment to road construction in order to get transit construction done. That's probably why dedicated sales tax revenues to transit expansion worked in LA (because there was a small freeway expansion component) but will probably fail in Toronto.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
I was thinking that a lower cost option which would save drivers a bunch of time and divert traffic out of central Kitchener would be to reroute Highway 7 via Shirley Dr. rather than Victoria, which puts people on the peripheral expressway rather than the main street into downtown. The interchange with the Conestoga parkway could be a trumpet interchange, which would hardly cost anything to build, since most of the components already exist. There is no need for Wellington St. to have a large highway interchange, since it is a small residential street. Cutting it off from the highway would make the neighbourhood much more livable.
Traffic from within Kitchener to the Parkway can use Victoria street and Lancaster Street.
Red: bicycle paths
Yellow: urban arterials
Orange: highway (high speed arterial, at grade expressway or grade separated expressway).
The rural portions can be upgraded as you said, with "high speed roundabouts" (which is a bit unnecessary to specify since it's always the type of roundabout we build in rural Ontario).
I think that would save enough money to double track the railway from Kitchener Transit Centre to Guelph Central station and increase the line speed from 70mph to 100mph, with the slow zone in Guelph raised to at least 45mph. That would allow a skeletal level of all-day two-way train service between Kitchener and Toronto (maybe 6-8 GO trains per direction per day), with capacity for additional DMU service between Kitchener and Guelph.
The line from Guelph to Georgetown could be upgraded or replaced with funds diverted from the 401 expansion.
Last edited:
jamincan
Active Member
The freeway is really not necessary, to be completely honest. The major bottlenecks are along Victoria Street in Kitchener and Woodlawn in Guelph, primarily due to the number of lights. Between the two cities, it can be frustrating due to the long line of cars, but the traffic typically moves well despite that. A four-lane road like Hwy 6 south of the 401 would be more than adequate coupled with a bypass of Victoria Street and Woodlawn and would be significantly cheaper.
dunkalunk
Senior Member
@reaperexpress, we are pretty much on the same page when it comes to rail improvements. I would however argue that it would be necessary to completely grade separate the rail corridor from Edinburgh to Gueph Central Station in order to completely remove the corridor from the Kent Street median.
As for what to do with the freeway portion, I figure something like this would suffice:
Local road access to this interchange is still necessary given the congestion-inducing Bruce-Edna ramps. The W-S would be removed and in its place the existing 3/4 loop would be used. If you wanted to spend even less money, you could build the local roads only.
I wanted to make the distinction between regular roundabouts and turbo roundabouts, the latter of which is far better at prioritizing through trafffic:
As for what to do with the freeway portion, I figure something like this would suffice:
Local road access to this interchange is still necessary given the congestion-inducing Bruce-Edna ramps. The W-S would be removed and in its place the existing 3/4 loop would be used. If you wanted to spend even less money, you could build the local roads only.
I wanted to make the distinction between regular roundabouts and turbo roundabouts, the latter of which is far better at prioritizing through trafffic:
reaperexpress
Senior Member
This is not a difference at all, it is exactly what I meant by removing the Guelph slow zone. In fact I was considering even linking your map in my post.
Ah, I see. Yes that makes sense. Turbo roundabouts also have the advantage of being safer and more intuitive than traditional multilane roundabouts.
ehlow
Senior Member
Another article about this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/pat-d-lynch/you-say-toronto-i-say-kw-_b_4579065.html
Some really long commutes mentioned there!
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/pat-d-lynch/you-say-toronto-i-say-kw-_b_4579065.html
Some really long commutes mentioned there!
ehlow
Senior Member
https://medium.com/@chrispyper/the-innovation-express-512aefc92687
If anything the above graphic undersells Toronto's tech cluster. It doesn't show some big companies in downtown TO like Amazon and a lot of companies in the tech startup hub around King-Spadina. Also misses companies in the Loo like Thalmic.
King to Queen & Spadina to Bathurst and the surrounding area doesn't just have tons of new condos, but lots of jobs & offices now.
If anything the above graphic undersells Toronto's tech cluster. It doesn't show some big companies in downtown TO like Amazon and a lot of companies in the tech startup hub around King-Spadina. Also misses companies in the Loo like Thalmic.
King to Queen & Spadina to Bathurst and the surrounding area doesn't just have tons of new condos, but lots of jobs & offices now.
Attachments
TOareaFan
Superstar
^what I don't get is how stuff that appears (or seems to want to appear) to be professionally produced can allow itself to publish errors so basic that a grade 5 or 6 student would get marks knocked off for replicating.
Pretty sure that within that Brampton/Bramalea/Malton circle they mean to say "....the country's largest data centre campus"
Pretty sure that within that Brampton/Bramalea/Malton circle they mean to say "....the country's largest data centre campus"
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Or the fact that they show a "potential stop" at the 407 even though Bramalea Station already exists there, and another at the 401 even though Etobicoke North Station already exists too...
TOareaFan
Superstar
and i did not want to pile on them but including the Nortel logo and the Avro Arrow are pretty questionable too
Jonny5
Senior Member
That would be Q9 networks at 1895 Williams Parkway. They actually don't employ many people at all. It's just a giant warehouse with servers/communication equipment and techs maintaining them. The light industrial logistics and shipping warehouses that surround it each employ far more people.
Last edited: