Hydrogen Fuelled Trains

[AnarchoSocialist]

Writing about missed opportunities in the alternate transit history thread made me think about what is taking place today and if one of those moments where thinking big could really, really pay off.

So before I say much else here are a few links. The first is for 'The Hydrogen Train', a European consortium that is looking to develop a hydrogen powered train by 2010. Project development and testing is being handled by Danish companies with other aspects of the project being taken care of by German, Italian, or UK companies or research facilities. There is some information on the site including feasibility studies and some presentation material, though I have not gotten to reading it yet so I am not sure how in depth it is.

The next two links, one for a Globe and Mail story, the other the same story but by the Toronto Star about an election comment by Dalton McGuinty in Sept, 2007 about approaching Bombardier with the idea of them developing a hydrogen powered commuter train that would be used by GO in Toronto.

With that being said there are already companies in Canada that are working on hydrogen fuel cell technology, Hydrogenics and Ballard Power are two. And if you consider that the University of Waterloo, U of T, and Queens University only a few hours down the road, are among Canada's top research universities, you have what seems to be a really strong economic region with plenty of talent that would be suited too such a project.

Personally, I look at this situation and see a fantastic opportunity and one that should be capitalized on, and quickly. It is not about developing high speed hydrogen trains, right now at least, but even developing hydrogen powered trains that could serve commuter and some inter-city markets is something could result in huge economic spin offs for all those involved.

I know there are still a lot of questions surrounding hydrogen power and do not know enough about the technical details yet to really say if such a project makes sense financially, or environmentally. I am curious what other people think though. Is this a project that is worth aggressively pursuing or not?

 

[drum118]

Writing about missed opportunities in the alternate transit history thread made me think about what is taking place today and if one of those moments where thinking big could really, really pay off.

So before I say much else here are a few links. The first is for 'The Hydrogen Train', a European consortium that is looking to develop a hydrogen powered train by 2010. Project development and testing is being handled by Danish companies with other aspects of the project being taken care of by German, Italian, or UK companies or research facilities. There is some information on the site including feasibility studies and some presentation material, though I have not gotten to reading it yet so I am not sure how in depth it is.

The next two links, one for a Globe and Mail story, the other the same story but by the Toronto Star about an election comment by Dalton McGuinty in Sept, 2007 about approaching Bombardier with the idea of them developing a hydrogen powered commuter train that would be used by GO in Toronto.

With that being said there are already companies in Canada that are working on hydrogen fuel cell technology, Hydrogenics and Ballard Power are two. And if you consider that the University of Waterloo, U of T, and Queens University only a few hours down the road, are among Canada's top research universities, you have what seems to be a really strong economic region with plenty of talent that would be suited too such a project.

Personally, I look at this situation and see a fantastic opportunity and one that should be capitalized on, and quickly. It is not about developing high speed hydrogen trains, right now at least, but even developing hydrogen powered trains that could serve commuter and some inter-city markets is something could result in huge economic spin offs for all those involved.

I know there are still a lot of questions surrounding hydrogen power and do not know enough about the technical details yet to really say if such a project makes sense financially, or environmentally. I am curious what other people think though. Is this a project that is worth aggressively pursuing or not?

Didn't Ballard Power just get out of some of this field not to long ago?

Where and How are you going to fuel the train?

Did someone sell TTC and the government an idea how to showcase Ontario and it flop known as the SRT??????????

Someone was pushing TTC to invest in Hydrogen power buses for the Waterfront transit system considering there was only 100 hydrogen power buses around in the world at the time. Still the same number today.

TTC is having major problems with the new Hybrid buses as the batterys are failing faster than call for. Orion is testing a new type with TTC now with Orion picking up the bill. Some fuel saving and again a lot lower than call for.

 

[Hydrogen]

Sorry, but hydrogen will be useless as a fuel for the foreseeable future.

First off, you have to get hydrogen. In its pure form it reacts easily with other chemicals and, as a result, must be separated from them. Presently, this requires more energy than the separated hydrogen will provide as a carrier of energy. This makes it very expensive and ineffcient. In the form of a highly compressed gas, it only has about one-third the energy content per unit volume as natural gas.

In order to be useful, hydrogen must be compressed (which is quite energy intensive, too). Liquified hydrogen would require refrigeration and would be out of the question. In order for a train to carry a sufficient amount of compressed hydrogen gas to be somewhat useful, one would require a safe, strong steel tank that would weigh more than fifty times what the actual compressed hydrogen weighs. Maybe other things like carbon fibre epoxy resin materials could be used, but these materials have a far lower crash resistance than steel.

Of course, one would need to get the hydrogen around, too. No one has built a hydrogen infrastructure. Right now, no one knows how. Any containment and transportation system would have to be built to the highest of standards as hydrogen will easily escape from the most minute flaws in seals. Hydrogen can even diffuse right through solid steel, making the steel brittle in the process. Regardless, even to be useful for powering a train, such a train would essentially be one very large and heavy fuel tank.

Then there is the little problem of compressed hydrogen being very explosive. Mix this with rail lines through populated areas and you will get upset people.

 

[ganjavih]

I don't understand how hydrogen can be used as a fuel either but GM is opening some hydrogen stations in the US. Seems like risky business to me.

 

[hkric88]

Hydrogen is not a fuel.

Hydrogen is a form of energy storage.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

not a train but a car...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jivb7lupDNU

New Fuel Cell System 'Generates Electricity with Only Water, Air'
Jun 13, 2008 19:30
Kouji Kariatsumari, Nikkei Electronics


Genepax Co Ltd explained the technologies used in its new fuel cell system "Water Energy System (WES)," which uses water as a fuel and does not emit CO2.

The system can generate power just by supplying water and air to the fuel and air electrodes, respectively, the company said at the press conference, which took place June 12, 2008, at the Osaka Assembly Hall.

The basic power generation mechanism of the new system is similar to that of a normal fuel cell, which uses hydrogen as a fuel. According to Genepax, the main feature of the new system is that it uses the company's membrane electrode assembly (MEA), which contains a material capable of breaking down water into hydrogen and oxygen through a chemical reaction.

Though the company did not reveal the details, it "succeeded in adopting a well-known process to produce hydrogen from water to the MEA," said Hirasawa Kiyoshi, the company's president. This process is allegedly similar to the mechanism that produces hydrogen by a reaction of metal hydride and water. But compared with the existing method, the new process is expected to produce hydrogen from water for longer time, the company said.

With the new process, the cell needs only water and air, eliminating the need for a hydrogen reformer and high-pressure hydrogen tank. Moreover, the MEA requires no special catalysts, and the required amount of rare metals such as platinum is almost the same as that of existing systems, Genepax said.

Unlike the direct methanol fuel cell (DMFC), which uses methanol as a fuel, the new system does not emit CO2. In addition, it is expected to have a longer life because catalyst degradation (poisoning) caused by CO does not occur on the fuel electrode side. As it has only been slightly more than a year since the company completed the prototype, it plans to collect more data on the product life.

At the conference, Genepax unveiled a fuel cell stack with a rated output of 120W and a fuel cell system with a rated output of 300W. In the demonstration, the 120W fuel cell stack was first supplied with water by using a dry-cell battery operated pump. After power was generated, it was operated as a passive system with the pump turned off.

This time, the voltage of the fuel cell stack was 25-30V. Because the stack is composed of 40 cells connected in series, it is expected that the output per cell is 3W or higher, the voltage is about 0.5-0.7V, and the current is about 6-7A. The power density is likely to be not less than 30mW/cm2 because the reaction area of the cell is 10 x 10 cm.

Meanwhile, the 300W fuel cell system is an active system, which supplies water and air with a pump. In the demonstration, Genepax powered the TV and the lighting equipment with a lead-acid battery charged by using the system. In addition, the 300W system was mounted in the luggage room of a compact electric vehicle "Reva" manufactured by Takeoka Mini Car Products Co Ltd, and the vehicle was actually driven by the system.

Genepax initially planned to develop a 500W system, but failed to procure the materials for MEA in time and ended up in making a 300W system.

For the future, the company intends to provide 1kw-class generation systems for use in electric vehicles and houses. Instead of driving electric vehicles with this system alone, the company expects to use it as a generator to charge the secondary battery used in electric vehicles.

Although the production cost is currently about ¥2,000,000 (US$18,522), it can be reduced to ¥500,000 or lower if Genepax succeeds in mass production. The company believes that its fuel cell system can compete with residential solar cell systems if the cost can be reduced to this level.

too good to be true?

 

[Rainforest]

I understand the appeal of hydrogen cars: everybody knows the drawbacks of fossil fuels, and getting rid of those, hydrogen might be a better energy storage than electric batteries (although this is debatable).

However, what's the advantage of hydrogen train over electric train? To produce hydrogen, you need electricity (some thermo-chemical cycles are a potential alternative, but those are cumbersome and none of them has been implemented on industrial scale). To propel the train, you need to convert that hydrogen back to electricity in a fuel cell. Then, why not just electrify the rail line (true and tried technology), and avoid two conversions?

I tried to find the answer on "The Hydrogen Train" site, unsuccessfully. One page there (http://www.hydrogentrain.eu/Default.aspx?ID=532) is particularly remarkable: it is called "Why hydrogen", but really tells why fossil fuels are bad and how wind power is better. No mention why hydrogen is better.

Looks like some people are busy spending governmental subsidies for research and innovation. European governments like that process.

 

[Degnaw]

too good to be true?

"the company did not reveal the details". Hm, I wonder why... Electrolysis is way too energy intensive for any "similar" process to actually produce energy. Honda or some carmaker has a huge array of solar cells that only produces enough Hydrogen to fuel something like one car a day.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

"the company did not reveal the details". Hm, I wonder why... Electrolysis is way too energy intensive for any "similar" process to actually produce energy. Honda or some carmaker has a huge array of solar cells that only produces enough Hydrogen to fuel something like one car a day.

i know. those words are usually a red flag. i constantly see those words with the bogus stem cell cures overseas.

with this car, i think it's some sort of chemical/metal reaction. the materials used in the reaction probably require lots of energy to produce or extract.

if they're soo worried about fully disclosing the process, they should get a paten before they hit the media so they can talk more about their discovery. they're probably looking for blind investors.

 

[hkric88]

I understand the appeal of hydrogen cars: everybody knows the drawbacks of fossil fuels, and getting rid of those, hydrogen might be a better energy storage than electric batteries (although this is debatable).

However, what's the advantage of hydrogen train over electric train? To produce hydrogen, you need electricity (some thermo-chemical cycles are a potential alternative, but those are cumbersome and none of them has been implemented on industrial scale). To propel the train, you need to convert that hydrogen back to electricity in a fuel cell. Then, why not just electrify the rail line (true and tried technology), and avoid two conversions?

I tried to find the answer on "The Hydrogen Train" site, unsuccessfully. One page there (http://www.hydrogentrain.eu/Default.aspx?ID=532) is particularly remarkable: it is called "Why hydrogen", but really tells why fossil fuels are bad and how wind power is better. No mention why hydrogen is better.

Looks like some people are busy spending governmental subsidies for research and innovation. European governments like that process.

Bang on!

 

[adma]

Well, here's the advantage of a hydrogen train: if it gets into a big accident, news reporters will be tempted to use the phrase "oh the humanity". Neato

 

[smuncky]

how about we bring these babies back.

 

[adma]

I pray for whomever rides that thing

 

[Hydrogen]

I don't understand how hydrogen can be used as a fuel either but GM is opening some hydrogen stations in the US. Seems like risky business to me.

If I remember correctly, I was told by a GM rep that they made large fuel cell racks for the chemical industry where hydrogen was being generated as a by-product of production. The stored hydrogen could then be used to supply fuel cells to produce the energy necessary in case of a power outage. Sounded like a niche market. I'm sure there are other such specialized applications.

 

[Kitsune]

Isnt Iceland moving towards a Hydrogren Economy by 2050?