How would you fix traffic in Toronto?

[ON1]

I drive around Toronto (downtown core and west end) and the biggest problems causing gridlock I've noticed are:

1. Streetcars. I don't see how some of you think buses are the same. Yes, they have to stop and are just as big. But they don't stop both lanes of traffic to do so and when people follow the law and yield for them traffic seems to move smoothly. Streetcars are a part of our history but we need to start finding alternatives if we can't find a functioning solution like St. Clair West's ROW across the city.

2. People stopped illegally in the right hand lane during rush hour with their flashers on, usually grabbing coffee or something.

3. Drivers being competitive and not allowing people to merge into the left lane if the right lane is blocked. Traffic moves well if everyone allows other drivers to change lanes appropriately.

4. Slow drivers. In Toronto, i'm always stuck behind someone going 30km/h in a 50 km/h zone.

5. Cyclists. Sorry, I agree that the city should have better infrastructure for you guys in place but sometimes you bomb around like fools riding side by side, having 10 cars pass and then running a red light so they're stuck behind you again.

Add in tons of neverending construction problems and events, and you can see why traffic flow sucks sometimes. Just my thoughts on the matter. I find if you leave lots of extra time, it isn't so bad. Just roll down the windows and enjoy the sights and sounds of the street, cause you're stuck there anyways.

 

[nfitz]

1. Streetcars. I don't see how some of you think buses are the same. Yes, they have to stop and are just as big. But they don't stop both lanes of traffic to do so and when people follow the law and yield for them traffic seems to move smoothly.

Just as big? The small streetcars are 15-metres long and the big ones are 23-metres long; our longest bus is only 12-metres long ... and with more lost space front and back as a streetcar. The new streetcars will be 30-metres long. Even if we had articulated buses, they are only 18-metres long, and never seem to have the same capacity per length as a streetcar. Not saying they are the same, but when you factor in that you'd have to replace every one of the new streetcars with 3 buses ... does that make a difference? Perhaps the new 30-metre streetcars are the solution you seek, as they wouldn't be quite as frequent at rush-hour.

5. Cyclists. Sorry, I agree that the city should have better infrastructure for you guys in place but sometimes you bomb around like fools riding side by side ...

Why would this be an issue? The bikes are supposed to stay in the centre of the lane, and the cars are supposed to use an entire lane for passing them. If they are following the law, having 2 along side each other, is just as difficult to pass as one; yet overtaking 2 side-by-side is surely easier than overtaking 2, each in the middle of the lane.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

Toll all highways coming into the City as a revenue generator. Invest the money into improving public transit (GO Trains: improved, extended and more frequent routes, TTC: more subways/LRT's and streetcar ROW's where possible. There's no more room for roads so public transit, walking and cycling is the future of this city so it must be greatly improved to encourage more people to use it, and to rely on it. This started about NYC, well most residents in Manhattan don't drive, they walk, cycle, take transit or cabs. If Toronto continues to grow we have to move more in that direction.

 

[ON1]

nfitz, my statement about the size of the vehicles may have been off, but my point was that the two different forms of transportation vary greatly in the amount of gridlock they create. When you see a streetcar, chances are the road ahead is clear (unless there's another streetcar ahead of it). Look behind that streetcar, and you'll see everything jammed up. This phenomena doesn't happen with buses nearly as much.

Why would this be an issue? The bikes are supposed to stay in the centre of the lane, and the cars are supposed to use an entire lane for passing them. If they are following the law, having 2 along side each other, is just as difficult to pass as one; yet overtaking 2 side-by-side is surely easier than overtaking 2, each in the middle of the lane.

Bikes may stay in the center of the lane if they choose. Legally, they are entitled to a full lane. The law also states that slower moving traffic should move to the right-hand side of the lane if it is possible to do so safely. Riding side by side isn't legal on bikes. Also, it would be legal for me to drive down the street if I were transporting a tractor, but you can't argue that it wouldn't cause gridlock.

 

[Aaerelon]

Toll all highways coming into the City as a revenue generator. Invest the money into improving public transit (GO Trains: improved, extended and more frequent routes, TTC: more subways/LRT's and streetcar ROW's where possible. There's no more room for roads so public transit, walking and cycling is the future of this city so it must be greatly improved to encourage more people to use it, and to rely on it. This started about NYC, well most residents in Manhattan don't drive, they walk, cycle, take transit or cabs. If Toronto continues to grow we have to move more in that direction.

Agreed. Toronto also needs to pay more attention to densities and zoning. More mixed-use neighbourhoods with a variety of shops and amenities will reduce non-essential car trips. These neighbourhoods can also provide local jobs, reducing work related commutes. Higher densities near mass transit developments encourage the use of transit as opposed to single occupancy vehicle. This is already being done around several main stations.

Although some drivers may disagree with tolling, it acts as a deterrent for some, reducing car numbers. Essentially they pay to better the flow of traffic, and thus improve their driving experience. It's win-win because the collected tolls can be invested in mass transit, further reducing car numbers and improving commute times.

I'm also currently unsure about the integration of transit systems in Toronto. You should be able to transfer from Go Train to bus, streetcar or any other mode with relative ease. I'm not sure if this is the case in Toronto, but it has worked extremely well for encouraging ridership in Vancouver and many northern European nations.

 

[nfitz]

Look behind that streetcar, and you'll see everything jammed up.

Five or six cars mostly ...half of which will have passed the streetcar by the next stop.

This phenomena doesn't happen with buses nearly as much.

On similar 2-lane roads, where the side lane is full of cars? I've had just as much problem passing buses ... even more, as you can never tell when the $@# things are signalling to get into your lane, or just signalling to start moving again ...

Yes, there's a bit more congestion created by the streetcar ... but given that you'd be replacing each new streetcar with 3 buses at peak ... then surely the problem would reduce ...

Bikes may stay in the center of the lane if they choose. Legally, they are entitled to a full lane. The law also states that slower moving traffic should move to the right-hand side of the lane if it is possible to do so safely. Riding side by side isn't legal on bikes.

Agreed ... but I don't see how it creates congestion.

 

[CanadianNational]

I know this thread is about making downtown traffic better through volume, switching, speed or access. But I've got a rather contrary view, one I hope that may be reasonable in the future.

I believe less emphasis on the need - and eventually the ability - to get downtown by car is a pain right now, but could be a virtue.
Instead of wondering what to do about the horrible traffic, perhaps we should delight that the downtown is not an endless succession of freeways and parking lots, and do further work in that direction - of manual-scale urban beautification. Essentially, I think the cure is not to try and fight the problem, but to improve upon the direction it is taking.

My solution is pretty out-there. It's more of a mindset than particular solution. But general ideas eventually grow specific results. This does involve less traffic downtown, not more, and traffic that generally belongs to the people who live there - not built equally just for people passing through or visiting. When you think of going to Paris or London, you don't think about getting a car. I feel our downtown should keep this in mind, yet concentrate on remaining 'open'.

I think the internal combustion automobile is something that should be viewed as a particular convenience, and not presumed to be normal. No main street downtown need be without leisurely sidewalks at an average of twenty feet wide or larger, and big healthy trees.
The scale of the city looks completely different for a car. Gearing placemaking to the perception of a driver does not work well with citizens of the same place. For downtown, a highly walkable area, it would be a boon to restore that public sense of pace and detail. Although people would cry it would be economic destruction - I'm willing to bet that the effect of such thorough care and such intensely human sympathy for the streets would make living there inordinately desirable. Economics would probably improve.

Now for the realpolitik part - I have very little ideas on how to fund it. It would be bit by bit, block by block, neighbourhood by neighbourhood.
Overall, I think road tolls are the first, fastest way to get there. A zone system on the TTC wouldn't hurt, either. Downtown is getting dense enough that it can afford a touch of mystique and not be held to the same broad standards as the suburbs. At the same time, a massive increase in public transit is the obvious partner to tolls and reduced vehicular flow. Lots of public transit. We'd need twice the amount of the subway lines that we have, and LRT's a go-go. Signalling and flow needs to be improved on the TTC streetcar lines.
Deliveries could be scheduled. Would sidewalks and trees cost more in upkeep than asphalt, markings and potholes?

More lanes that now have cars on them could easily be turned to bike lanes.

 

[ON1]

Five or six cars mostly ...half of which will have passed the streetcar by the next stop.

I have to take Dundas west a lot, and from my experience it becomes impossible to pass a streetcar because of the combination of parked cars and the large number of stops and traffic lights. I find it much easier to pass buses and they seem to reach traffic speed quicker.

Agreed ... but I don't see how it creates congestion.

Riding side by side creates congestion because traffic has to merge into the left lane instead of having enough room to pass by if, say, the riders were on the shoulder of the road. While i'm on the topic, shout outs to the guy who was riding his bike infront of me on Monday despite the fact there was a bike lane directly beside him.

More lanes that now have cars on them could easily be turned to bike lanes.

I don't think this is practical, as for the majority of the year most cycling isn't viable. Wintertime means harsh weather conditions (only the hardcore cyclists come out) and piled up snow in the streets.

No main street downtown need be without leisurely sidewalks at an average of twenty to thirty feet wide and big, healthy trees.

I agree to an extent. It seems that the city isn't very good at tasking these things- look at when they widened the sidewalks on Bloor street downtown. They reduced traffic lanes and put in more pedestrian space.. and then put in big tree boxes so that nobody actually walks on the extended sidewalk because there's a tree in the way every 10 feet. Additionally, not everyone can afford to live downtown so some people are forced to drive or commute via TTC. Cutting back on road space would make it difficult for anybody who is a Torontonian that lives outside of the downtown core. A city core should be easily accessible to all, and it really isn't a solution to expel traffic that "doesn't belong".

I agree about increased transit. In other cities, the transit is far superior. Everyone talks about ditching cars, but if we were to do so the TTC wouldn't be able to keep up with the strain as it struggles with ridership levels already. It seems like there is no simple solution, and we're bound to keep going in circles until something gives way. Personally, I believe that subways are the way to go. They are faster, do not interfere with surface routes and can accommodate more people. It seems that we won't get any cross city subway tunnels any time soon though... people are too focused on streetcars or lines that don't really serve a function (ie: the IKEA subway line that we spent a fortune on). Funding is hard to come by though, so until the city gets some real cash we're stuck.

 

[nfitz]

I have to take Dundas west a lot, and from my experience it becomes impossible to pass a streetcar because of the combination of parked cars and the large number of stops and traffic lights. I find it much easier to pass buses and they seem to reach traffic speed quicker.

I can't really speak to Dundas West ... I assume this is a non-rush hour issue, or else there wouldn't be parked cars.

Riding side by side creates congestion because traffic has to merge into the left lane instead of having enough room to pass by if, say, the riders were on the shoulder of the road.

Ah, but the rider shouldn't be in the shoulder of the road in the first place ... and the car should still be merging into the left lane ... so the cyclist breaking the rules and travelling in pairs really is really difficult to compare to another scenario where both rider and driver are breaking the rules ... which I admit does happen much of the time.

I don't think this is practical, as for the majority of the year most cycling isn't viable. Wintertime means harsh weather conditions (only the hardcore cyclists come out) and piled up snow in the streets.

There isn't snow piled up on the streets the majority of the year!

 

[ON1]

Ah, but the rider shouldn't be in the shoulder of the road in the first place

As I mentioned above, the law suggests slower moving traffic should move to the shoulder if it is safely possible to do so. Driving behind a slow cyclist can create it's own safety issues.

I can't really speak to Dundas West ... I assume this is a non-rush hour issue, or else there wouldn't be parked cars.

An any-time issue really, since people don't seem to pay attention to the no stopping times on street signs. I'd love more enforcement of this.

There isn't snow piled up on the streets the majority of the year!

True. But the time that cycling is viable would generally be April- November. So about five months, meaning that many people put their bikes away for half the year and opt for other means of getting around.

 

[GraphicMatt]

It's very difficult to compare the relative congestion caused by buses versus streetcars because we've never experimented with running bus service on busy downtown streets at current service levels. I'd suspect that any improvement caused by the ability for transit vehicles to pull over to the right to pick up passengers would be offset by the hundreds of extra buses crammed onto the streets.

 

[ON1]

Does anyone know the statistics for bus vs streetcar seating capacity?

 

[MetroMan]

Off the top of my head, a Toronto streetcar fits as many passengers as 3 urban buses. The new streetcars that we're getting is over 4 x a bus.

The drivers in the few cars that are waiting behind the streetcar are so few they could stand together in the streetcar stairwell. Dozens of passengers in a streetcar are holding up 3 drivers behind them for 15 seconds? Oh boo hoo.

 

[Chuck]

My experiences with New York are similar - the volume of traffic flowing through New York is impossibly large, and yet it moves at a sluggish yet constant pace. That is based on traveling extensively through Manhattan and the boroughs, and utilizing many of the major tunnels and bridges. At rush hour, southbound Jarvis and University between Queen and the Gardiner exhibit gridlock that Manhattan simply can't compete with.

Toronto planners are not waking up to reality - it is possible and likely that car usage rates are dropping by a few percentage points per year in the central city. However, with residential and office population growing by the same percentage or more, there is probably no net reduction in traffic volume. This trend is likely to continue indefinitely.

One way streets are the answer. New York proves that they have no impact on street life, but they do have a profound impact on traffic flow when implemented properly. On that note, Toronto fails to successfully operate the few one way streets that it does have - it's nearly impossible to travel along Richmond or Adelaide without hitting a red light at each intersection.

 

[MetroMan]

I drive around Toronto (downtown core and west end) and the biggest problems causing gridlock I've noticed are:

1. Streetcars.

Wow, that's easy enough. Since streetcars are the number one cause of traffic congestion in Toronto, we should immediately take them off the most commonly congested street in Toronto: Eglinton Av. Oh wait. There are no streetcars on Eglinton.

That streetcars cause congestion is a myth. Those streetcars carrying dozens of passengers are either being held up by vehicles occupied by a single driver turning left or they're going the speed limit, so if you want to go faster than them, you're breaking the law. It sucks to be behind a vehicle that is taller than you and obstructs your view but it doesn't mean that you'll be going much faster.