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How to Make Mass Transit Financially Sustainable Once and for All

A "smartcard" is not that smart. Plenty of cities in third world countries have used them for years. The fact that it is an expensive challenge for Toronto is a mystery.

But we really need to get rid of the tokens, transfers and scratch day passes. The are so 1980s. TTC is losing money due to the loopholes. Try wave a transfer expired 3 days ago to enter a subway statios, especially during rush hours and chances are that the ticket inspectors won't even raise its eyebrows and just let you in.
 
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Agree, smartcard isn't rocket science - in fact, it is probably going the way of the Dodo when smartphone penetration goes universal. Frankly, is really isn't about attacking workers but to redeploy them for purposes that are not replaceable by machines.

AoD
 
Agree, smartcard isn't rocket science - in fact, it is probably going the way of the Dodo when smartphone penetration goes universal. Frankly, is really isn't about attacking workers but to redeploy them for purposes that are not replaceable by machines.

AoD
Don't forget that not everyone can afford a smartphone.
 
Don't forget that not everyone can afford a smartphone.
Not to mention those who can afford a smart phone but don't want one. I think it is called heresy.
Before the Luddite thing is invoked, I do own a cell phone. I use it to phone people.
 
According to the 2012 Annual Report, download the PDF from this link, the TTC received $91,600,000 from their portion of the Ontario Gas Tax, in 2012. The TTC got $388,971,000 as a subsidy from the city of Toronto. Don't know about any subsidy from the 905 for users from there who use the TTC. From fares, the TTC got $1,023,423,000. Advertising revenue paid $26,097,000, and property rental paid $19,310,000. There were other sources of revenue in the annual report.
 
I think it is time politicians should stop drawing future transit maps as a means just to gain votes, instead of letting experts decide what areas need transit and where it makes financial sense.

Additionally, why can't the construction of subways be an internationally competitive tendering process? Considering it is all taxpayers' money, shouldn't we give it to the lowest bidder (with the same quality) instead of simply giving to job to expensive Ontario unionized workers as if they deserve it by birth right?

That's exactly what Ottawa did. It launched a true competitive bidding process, that was won by a consortium consisting mostly of foreign companies. Infrastructure Ontario allowed it under the condition that whoever won must use at least 20% Canadian source materials for the vehicles. Ottawa also went with a true P3, where the entire project, even the design, was tendered out. The city literally played 0 role in the project other than doing the EA, initial design work, and making the RFP. The result? An LRT line that is functionally a subway, for just $160M/kilometre, with full service only five years after the contract was signed. Five years to design & build. Whereas, Eglinton is $260M/kilometre for a line where half runs on street, and that will take 8 years to design & build.

The benefit of the province being so GTA-focused, is that it basically lets Ottawa make all its own transit decisions, its only role is to hand over the cheque for its 1/3 share. It makes for much less political interference & delay. As long as Ottawa City Council has its stuff in order, sh*t gets done there. And ever since Jim Watson became mayor of Ottawa, City Council is very functional.
 
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According to the 2012 Annual Report, download the PDF from this link, the TTC received $91,600,000 from their portion of the Ontario Gas Tax, in 2012. The TTC got $388,971,000 as a subsidy from the city of Toronto.

The City gets around $160M annually from the Ontario Gas Tax. In 2012, $91.6M in gas tax funding was used for the TTC's operating costs, and $75.0M was used for the TTC's capital costs, so that's $166.6M total for the TTC in 2012.

Don't know about any subsidy from the 905 for users from there who use the TTC.

Fares? Ontario Gas Tax?
 
That's exactly what Ottawa did. It launched a true competitive bidding process, that was won by a consortium consisting mostly of foreign companies. Infrastructure Ontario allowed it under the condition that whoever won must use at least 20% Canadian source materials for the vehicles. Ottawa also went with a true P3, where the entire project, even the design, was tendered out. The city literally played 0 role in the project other than doing the EA, initial design work, and making the RFP. The result? An LRT line that is functionally a subway, for just $160M/kilometre, with full service only five years after the contract was signed. Five years to design & build. Whereas, Eglinton is $260M/kilometre for a line where half runs on street, and that will take 8 years to design & build.

The benefit of the province being so GTA-focused, is that it basically lets Ottawa make all its own transit decisions, its only role is to hand over the cheque for its 1/3 share. It makes for much less political interference & delay. As long as Ottawa City Council has its stuff in order, sh*t gets done there. And ever since Jim Watson became mayor of Ottawa, City Council is very functional.

I disagree with your comparison of the Ottawa LRT to the Eglinton Crosstown. The ECLRT is being tendered in a very similar way to the Ottawa line - it is a true P3 tendered by IO. The difference in time and cost is because the majority of the Ottawa line is simply converting parts of the existing busway to the LRT and the new tunnelled section through downtown is relatively short. The tunneled section of the ECLRT is substantially longer and requires much more land to be acquired for new stations and infrastructure.
 
Not to mention those who can afford a smart phone but don't want one.

Thankfully nearly every standard debit and credit card in Canada also includes full capabilities to be a smart card. It's actually easier to batch charges after the fact (with authorization done immediately like every hotel around the world does) than to pre-charge the customer and create a separate balance system including all the extra fare machines and balance checkers required to go with it.

The main reason for Presto to exist as a semi-bank (pre-paid credits) is for the interest on funds saved on the card and so customers will overpay (deposit $20, use $17, then leave Toronto long enough for the account to become idle). Presto exists for the same reason retail stores have gift cards; they profit due to your forgetfulness.
 
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Thankfully nearly every standard debit and credit card in Canada also includes full capabilities to be a smart card. It's actually easier to batch charges after the fact (with authorization done immediately like every hotel around the world does) than to pre-charge the customer and create a separate balance system including all the extra fare machines and balance checkers required to go with it.

The main reason for Presto to exist as a semi-bank (pre-paid credits) is for the interest on funds saved on the card and so customers will overpay (deposit $20, use $17, then leave Toronto long enough for the account to become idle). Presto exists for the same reason retail stores have gift cards; they profit due to your forgetfulness.

But why do we need to use credit card and debit card to pay for TTC fare? What advantage do they have over a simple oyster-card like fare card, like what they use in New York, London and Boston, which is all we need. Do we feel our technology is so shameful that we just need to showcase something that is considered cool and somewhat unique even though it is utterly unnecessary? Or because we are just flush with extra cash waiting to be spent somewhere?

I call this function a complete waste of money (and time). All we need is a rechargeable fare card that can keep track of time and distance, and as I said before, it is nothing new. Plenty of their world countries have used it for years.
 
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The City gets around $160M annually from the Ontario Gas Tax. In 2012, $91.6M in gas tax funding was used for the TTC's operating costs, and $75.0M was used for the TTC's capital costs, so that's $166.6M total for the TTC in 2012.[/quote

So with Hudak's promise to cancel the gas tax funding, TTC will have to find another $167 million. With just over $1 billion coming from fares, then all they have to do is raise fares 16% to make up the difference.

Or the city can increase property taxes to raise $167 million.
 
What cities in North America have a more expensive monthly pass for transit?

Most are much cheaper, but then again Toronto does have the lowest per rider subsidy in North America (and therefore already the closest to being financially sustainable) so it's not surprising.

That being said, a 28 day pass in Washington D.C. is $230 (http://www.wmata.com/fares/purchase/passes.cfm) and a 30 day London Travelcard for Zone 1 is approx. $220 (https://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/tube-dlr-lo-adult-fares-jan-2014.pdf). NYC passes are only $112USD, but MTA is nowhere near to being financially sustainable. GO transit is obviously much more expensive than the TTC and they continue to experience tremendous growth and overcrowding during peak periods, so there is clearly plenty of demand out there.

Personally I think we need to adopt a zone system similar to that in place in London. Longer trips generally cost more to serve than shorter ones, and the alternative (driving) is also more expensive. I've heard the argument many times that we need to encourage people in the outer suburbs to take transit by keeping fares low, but what about encouraging them by improvement service frequency, introducing express options and reducing overcrowding? Higher fares will allow all of this to happen.
 
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But why do we need to use credit card and debit card to pay for TTC fare? What advantage do they have over a simple oyster-card like fare card, like what they use in New York, London and Boston, which is all we need. Do we feel our technology is so shameful that we just need to showcase something that is considered cool and somewhat unique even though it is utterly unnecessary? Or because we are just flush with extra cash waiting to be spent somewhere?

I call this function a complete waste of money (and time). All we need is a rechargeable fare card that can keep track of time and distance, and as I said before, it is nothing new. Plenty of their world countries have used it for years.

I... Umm.. What? Simple? Also, London, New York, and Boston are using 3 different things.

The credit/debit implementation is standard, off-the shelf, with about half the number of parts and banks pay for a large chunk of that. The instant you store a balance, you need fare check machines, balance check machines, and a massive backend including a call centre and withdrawal mechanism. Let the banks do all that; they're good at it.

Presto V1 was unique, very expensive to create as a result, and still has years worth of development to go to fix the problems (like the 24 hour delay to load fare via the web). Presto V2 is a dream for any contractor.

London created their card before any alternatives existed. Much of their knowledge went into creating the now standard, off-the-shelf electronic money exchange platforms used across most of Europe and Canada. London's card created modern banking/retail; TTC and GO should be taking advantage of that. Also simple? It's one of the most complex creatures out there and one of the lessons learned was that small-transaction electronic retail does not require all of that complexity.

FYI, London also back-ported those standard banking changes prior to the London Olympics and accepts any card issued from any major bank.


You only need to spend a day in New York to see their mag-stripe cards cause massive bottlenecks at bus stations. The Q33 has about a 50 minute run to the airport and 10 minutes of that is scanning transfers at Jackson Heights; operating overhead of that card is massive with NYs non-integrated transfer points.


The question is backward. You should be asking why McDonald's, Tim Hortons, Vancouver transit, and nearly every other retailer in Canada and Europe are able to use one transaction processing mechanism for small transactions successfully but GO Transit requires something special. Why does GO need something special (here's a hint, it doesn't, but they paid handsomely to roll their own).
 
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I don't see any reason for making the passes cheaper - Toronto doesn't need to reduce the price of transit for it to be competitive. Besides you can argue that we already subsidize long distance trips disproportionately through the lack of zone fares within the city (and conversely, we are probably surpressing the demand for short distance travel)
AoD
 
Don't know about any subsidy from the 905 for users from there who use the TTC. .

The TTC got $388,971,000 as a subsidy from the city of Toronto.

905 users...hmmm...aren't most of them either commuters going to work in Toronto or tourists? Doesn't Toronto collect more commercial property taxes then other cities? And collects property taxes from major buildings (i.e. Skydome, restaurants, hotels, etc)? So yes, Toronto does indirectly collect property taxes from the tourists and workers.

Blaming the higher level of government is good for politicians...it worked well for Quebec for the past 40 years...but it is just out of one pocket or the other.

Blaming people from out of Toronto is also a good excuse for politicians...but we have to understand the direct and indirect benefits Toronto has from being the center of the GTA (and the added revenue it brings to the city coffers).

But we need to put the blame squarely where it should reside...with our elected city officials, the wasteand mismanagment at city hall, and our insistence of lower property taxes. Go to other cities and they keep their roads paved and are building transit (such as Kitchener). A region of 500,000 found $300M to pay for a third of their $900M LRT project.

But Toronto, a city of 2,500,000 cannot afford to pave its major streets and whines to Ontario and Canada every time it has to pay a penny. Toronto only put $500M into the Spadina line (about 10% of the cost within the City of Toronto). How much is it putting into the Crosstown?

If Toronto cannot afford to have a project 5x the size of Kitchener and keep our roads and transit modernized then we have to figure out what is going wrong at City Hall...and it is either too low of taxes or something is fishy with the government....and probably both
 

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