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Harper Proroguing Parliament again

Hyperbole much?
No ... not much at all.

It was a huge and conscious lie from the Conservative party during the last election. Remember the recession had already started, ... and it's clear from the revenue numbers from the period during the election that a deficit was not avoidable.

The Tories have created a massive deficit that will take years to clean up. And the prime reason is that they cut taxation rates too low ... had they left the GST at 7%, then we would not be facing a long-term deficit.

Of course, if they had not tried to spend so much extra from 2006 to 2008 we might be in better shape ...

What we need is a fiscally conservative government!
 
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A majority of Canadians have never supported the current Harper government. (To be fair, a majority of Canadians haven't supported any government since Mulroney's first.)

A majority of Canadians are fed up with the constant merry-go-round of leaders/governments at the top and would be more than content just having the incumbent one be given an opportunity to lead. That that's not reflected in total number of votes cast really means nothing. If you're disillusioned to the political process - the constant bickering and in-flighting that pits neighbour against neighbour, priority against priority while what the other guy's offering sounds either more of the same or radically out-of-touch with our current situation - you will opt not to vote, it's that simple. Most Canadians realize that Harper even at his worse is a more competent choice than any other offerings there is right now. Honestly at this point, I could picture many people voting Conservative simply out of spite against the opposition parties for having to have been put through the ringer of yet another election session so soon after the last one.

Harper did have to compromise on his budget, as initially he refused to believe Canada was in recession and wanted to carry on like normal. It was a good and necessary compromise.

Subjective and debatable. Many analysts would disagree with you.

Harper has not cut government spending nor given us any significant tax cuts. He gave us the GST cut which I suppose is notable in that it's a tax cut that was a huge mistake and will make deficit recovery far more difficult than it would have been otherwise.

Lol! Are you taking your pointers from Ed Clark? Calls for a GST hike to balance the budget shows a surprising lack of understanding about the source of the federal deficit. The federal government has a spending, not a revenue problem. The federal government could realistically balance the budget by 2011/12 with modest spending cuts. And by doing so would not require any tax increases for Canadians. That said, it will take at least two years before the government has enough fiscal room to significantly reduce taxes that improve Canada’s ability to attract investment and create jobs.

Most life essentials, electricity, etc. are subject to GST. Therefore low income people pay a far greater proportion of their income on GST than better off classes. Only a small portion is refunded in GST credits. Big business gets a free ride, which is the real GST rationale. The GST is a very inefficient tax, expensive and complicated to collect and costly to administer. It costs about 10-cents to collect a dollar of GST, and 20-cents to administer a dollar of rebate to low income groups. That's 30-percent shrinkage right off the top. So essentially Harper's helping out far more Canadians, including both you and I, per lowering the GST.

The Dion-led Green Shift plan would have seen significant income tax cuts. It was a tax shift, not a new tax. Those who were successfully able to lower their carbon footprint would have seen significant tax savings. In recent months, Harper has openly mused about the necessity of a carbon tax of his own down the line.

It was never going to be revenue neutral for any individual or any corporation. It would've been a tax on everything. It's only good for the wallet I suppose if you like your wallet empty.

No one is faulting the Conservatives for stimulus spending. It was necessary for economic recovery. The issue is that the government has not presented a clear path that will return the country to surplus and the distribution of stimulus funds was less than efficient.

I think that they have. You just have to take off your red-tinted goggles to see it.

Also, real question: where do you get your news?

Given the level of liberal-bias in the mainstream media that has folk caught up in the spectacle of ideological posturing from the parties which detracts us from the real issues, I suppose that's a really good question.
 
I think that they have. You just have to take off your red-tinted goggles to see it.
Can you point to something indicating when they will be running surpluses again?

Given the level of liberal-bias in the mainstream media that has folk caught up in the spectacle of ideological posturing from the parties which detracts us from the real issues, I suppose that's a really good question.
Liberal-bias in the mainstream media? Almost without exception (the exception being the Toronto Star) every media outlet in the country that has supported a party in the last two elections supported the Conservatives - including 3 of the 4 Toronto newspapers ... 75% support in a city where they got less than 25% of the vote.

The right-wing bias in the media has been well documented ... are you sure it's not your glasses that are tinted?
 
I believe it is reality that has a well-known liberal bias. Unfortunately Fresh Start is lacking in some basic understanding of our fiscal situation, and how taxes affect economic activity (if you think a small carbon tax will cause economic chaos, you've been had--ever heard of gasoline excise?) and incentives. Lemme guess, someone hangs out at Free Dominion?
 
I do think he's an interesting lens into how a lot of less politically aware Canadians view government right now, though. They just want all these crazy opposition parties to stop meddling in governmental affairs - let the nice, hockey-loving, average joe from Calgary govern the country. He's a fiscal conservative, so you know he won't spend very much and will ultimately lower taxes!
 
Given the level of liberal-bias in the mainstream media that has folk caught up in the spectacle of ideological posturing from the parties which detracts us from the real issues, I suppose that's a really good question.

I think you're confusing a lot of the posters here as being card-carrying Liberals, which is ironic, because your odd defense against a barrage of facts and common knowledge shrieks of bias. I (and probably others) are pragmatic centrists, and will call out bullshit from whoever is in charge.

Now please prove that the media is "liberal-bias". Canwest will support the right-winger, TorStar will support the left-winger... so let's leave them out of it. Did you know the Globe and Mail endorsed Stephen Harper in the last election? Your turn.

I do think he's an interesting lens into how a lot of less politically aware Canadians view government right now, though. They just want all these crazy opposition parties to stop meddling in governmental affairs - let the nice, hockey-loving, average joe from Calgary govern the country. He's a fiscal conservative, so you know he won't spend very much and will ultimately lower taxes!

There's gas in my car and some food on my table! I'm good!
 
I believe it is reality that has a well-known liberal bias
I didn't know reality had a bias one way or another!

The media though clearly has a right-wing bias, and has since it became primarily owned by very right-wing corporations such as CanWest and Bell (and yes, I know Asper was in theory a Liberal ... but that has never seemed to mean much at CanWest).

If your thinking about the traditional left-wing bias of the press, I need to tell you that the 1970s are over! This hasn't been true for years, even a decade.
 
The Canadian media has, I think, been more likely to just generally support whoever's in power at the time, rather than push a bias one way or another. The Star's the exception, of course, but it's rather straightforwardly pro capital-L Liberal.
 
Woops: I almost forgot to call bullshit on some of what you said here.

Lol! Are you taking your pointers from Ed Clark? Calls for a GST hike to balance the budget shows a surprising lack of understanding about the source of the federal deficit. The federal government has a spending, not a revenue problem. The federal government could realistically balance the budget by 2011/12 with modest spending cuts. And by doing so would not require any tax increases for Canadians. That said, it will take at least two years before the government has enough fiscal room to significantly reduce taxes that improve Canada’s ability to attract investment and create jobs.

You're wrong bud. With some spending cuts we could balance the budget by 2013/2014 (by some, we're talking $15 billion, which is not small by any means--think no more military). See independant analysis by the Parliamentary Budget Officer.

Furthermore, Ed Clark was talking about raising taxes on the wealthy. Don't take him out of context. And by 'taking out of context', I mean 'lying'.

Most life essentials, electricity, etc. are subject to GST. Therefore low income people pay a far greater proportion of their income on GST than better off classes. Only a small portion is refunded in GST credits. Big business gets a free ride, which is the real GST rationale. The GST is a very inefficient tax, expensive and complicated to collect and costly to administer. It costs about 10-cents to collect a dollar of GST, and 20-cents to administer a dollar of rebate to low income groups. That's 30-percent shrinkage right off the top. So essentially Harper's helping out far more Canadians, including both you and I, per lowering the GST.

Net effect of GST + GST rebates on low income people is basically zero, or positive. The answer to your argument that "GST is regressive" (true) is not "No GST!" but "give money to poor people". That's exactly what we do, and it works well.

GST is not 'inefficient'. In the economic sense, it is much more efficient than income, payroll, or capital taxes--that is, it costs less in economic activity per dollar raised than any of these taxes. GST is no more complicated to collect (and indeed simpler) than payroll tax deductions. Just about every company that collects and remits GST also does payroll, and payroll is much more complicated. Frankly, I don't believe that GST costs more to administer than these other policies, if you have any evidence to the contrary please provide it. Same goes with the figure for 20% of cost of GST rebates are used in distributing the rebates. Sounds like a Fraser Institute talking point. How does that compare to other tax administration schemes?
 
“The one who adapts his policy to the times prospers, and likewise that the one whose policy clashes with the demands of the times does not.”
- realist political thinker and scholar, Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli.

You know, for a bunch of "centrists", you all appear to be extremely riled up by the notion that our Prime Minister (yes YOUR'S too) may actually be doing a good job on the economy which further discredits the need or rationale to have the Conservatives abdicated. I'm also curious to know since when "bullshit" was considered appropriate language to be used in the forum in response to other poster's comments which I'm certain violates UT's policies of conduct. Perhaps, that proves that there is a liberal bias, at least on this message board such that you cannot discuss the issues nor possibly consider the other side of the debate without having to resort to verbal attacks.
 
Liberal-bias in the mainstream media? Almost without exception (the exception being the Toronto Star) every media outlet in the country that has supported a party in the last two elections supported the Conservatives - including 3 of the 4 Toronto newspapers ... 75% support in a city where they got less than 25% of the vote.

The right-wing bias in the media has been well documented ... are you sure it's not your glasses that are tinted?

It's called being fair and balanced, they will try to present issues from all sides but have definitely demonstrated themselves to show the Liberal Party favoritism. You guys watch CTV's Question Period? Indeed there is a bias. To answer GraphicMatt's question, I probably read/watch all the same news sources as you do (Globe and Mail and National Post in particular), you just have to take everything you read with a grain of salt. You cannot necessarily put faith in what some banking CEO has to say about the economy because the position of CEOs is to perpetuate their political/wealth advantage over the masses and even over sovereign governments. They're the very folk responsible for the financial crisis in the first place; do you honestly think that they're the root out of this mess?
 
So, in sum: you're right because Machiavelli, profanity, incorrect usage of apostrophes, banking CEOs. This is very confusing.

I'm quite open to the idea of the PM doing a good job on the economy, but I don't see it. It looks like the same cut-taxes, increase-spending, kill-programs-we're-idealogically-opposed-to plan Flaherty used to disastrous effect in Ontario. The Bush administration did it too. It's not sustainable.
 
What exactly is Harper's economic policy? I don't believe he has articulated much of anything, especially recently.

When he started his mandate he introduced two things that could be construed as economic policy:

-cut corporate income tax (good idea)
-cut GST (absolutely, monumentally terrible idea)

Your arguments in favour of cutting GST (and not eliminating) are not even coherent. How does cutting the rate address the issue that it is allegedly difficult to administer? It means less revenue with no corresponding decrease in compliance cost. The GST cut was retroactively hailed as stimulative. A GST cut has just about the lowest bang/buck of any tax cut in terms of stimulative effect.

I suspect your invocation of Machiavelli and mock outrage over some aggressive language (your virgin ears!) means you didn't feel confident addressing the points raised.
 
Woops: I almost forgot to call bullshit on some of what you said here.

You're wrong bud. With some spending cuts we could balance the budget by 2013/2014 (by some, we're talking $15 billion, which is not small by any means--think no more military). See independant analysis by the Parliamentary Budget Officer.

Furthermore, Ed Clark was talking about raising taxes on the wealthy. Don't take him out of context. And by 'taking out of context', I mean 'lying'.

We're a top ranking nation on the Global Peace Index who has seen its annual military spending skyrocket ever since Jean Cretien backed by Paul Martin dragged Canada into an American ideological war against the Middle East, for its wealth and influence. We could stand to stabilize our military debt and scale it back down to 1990s levels especially now that our military presence in Afghanistan is coming to a close.

Ed Clark was quoted by leading new publications as stating the CEO's of the CCCE agreed that it would be acceptable to "raise my taxes", but no context was given in relation to what taxes he was speaking of. But then just last week, Terence Corcoran wrote an article suggesting that another unnamed CEO had stated that Clark was speaking of the GST when he stated "raise my taxes." I find that more than a little odd a wording for speaking of the GST, don't you?

Net effect of GST + GST rebates on low income people is basically zero, or positive. The answer to your argument that "GST is regressive" (true) is not "No GST!" but "give money to poor people". That's exactly what we do, and it works well.

GST is not 'inefficient'. In the economic sense, it is much more efficient than income, payroll, or capital taxes--that is, it costs less in economic activity per dollar raised than any of these taxes. GST is no more complicated to collect (and indeed simpler) than payroll tax deductions. Just about every company that collects and remits GST also does payroll, and payroll is much more complicated. Frankly, I don't believe that GST costs more to administer than these other policies, if you have any evidence to the contrary please provide it. Same goes with the figure for 20% of cost of GST rebates are used in distributing the rebates. Sounds like a Fraser Institute talking point. How does that compare to other tax administration schemes?

So all we have to do is increase taxes (GST) and then we can all join hands and sing kum-by-yah? Lol! I may be the only true centrist on here. I am so tired of giving half of my income to anyone in Ottawa, my Province or municipality to maintain their bloated self-serving beauocracy. $100 taxes for $50 services. And you are happy with that? Every penny I scrimp and save will be reduced by your new GST %. Money has no value unless you can spend it. Every service I require will be increased by this same amount. I expect the next federal budget will cut spending, not raise any current tax. So unless these CEOs are running for office, everything they say is just another opinion poll.

I really question whether income tax cuts that are financed by consumption tax increases are sustainable. In the early 1990s most European nations increased consumption taxes (particularly taxes on energy consumption) to finance both corporate and personal income tax rates. But the consumption tax revenues rarely met budget expectations (largely because the regressive nature of the taxes had a negative impact on consumption). To balance budgets, the Eurpean governments had to increase other taxes. Take Sweden and Denmark, for example. Government service agencies do not pay income taxes but do pay consumption taxes (or grants in lieu of those taxes). So when Sweden and Denmark hiked energy taxes to finance corporate and personal income tax cuts, there was a Swedish and Danish tax burden shifts frm the private sector to the public sector. To cover the resulting increase in the cost to deliver social services and health care, Swedish and Danish payroll taxes and mandatory health care premiums were increased---at three times the rate of the energy tax increases.

When there was no more room to increase payroll taxes and health care premiums, those government introduced new "supplemental" personal income taxes. Today, while corporate income tax rates are still below 1990 levels in those countries (but still higher than current Canadian corporate income tax rates), personal income tax rates, paroll tax rates and health care premiums are all higher than they were in 1990. In other words, after the economies incurred the full impact of the original attempt to finance both personal and corporate income tax cuts with consumption tax increases, only the corporate income tax cuts survived and the personal income tax cuts were reversed. Today, a Dane who earns more than CAD $51,000 remits 63% of his/her gross income in the form of income taxes, payroll taxes and mandatory health care premiums. In 2006, the McKinsey Group found that 19% to 12% of Swedes deemed to be "employed" were at home on full time "sick leave". Sick leave ate up over 16% of total Swedish government spending in that year. Experts posit that the massive number of Swedes on sick leave reflected the inability of Swedes to generate positive financial or emotional returns from continuing to work.

Do you want to the same fate happen to Canadians, or worse?

So contrary to what many here might think - prorogation or no prorogation - the Harper administration may be the closet thing to a true democratic leadership that this country will have seen in a long time from its aim of minimizing the government's interventionist role in citizen's everyday lives and in the markets; to redistributing wealth to as many Canadian individuals and industries as possible. I'm not blindly supporting them, far from it; just countering the angry, rabid mob mentality that they're implicitly no good and cannot be reasoned with to work in the public's best interest.
 

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