GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[mpd618]

Updated GO track ownership post Guelph sub transaction.

This is great!

(no further increase in ownership possible)

There are a lot of challenging things that are possible. Or expensive things that can nevertheless be purchased.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

There are a lot of challenging things that are possible. Or expensive things that can nevertheless be purchased.

That's true I shouldn't say never, rather its very unlikely. More likely and probably what your referring to is constructing new corridors such as a hydro-corridor bypass for the Halton or separated subdivision within the same rail corridor elsewhere - as in the Kingston/GO, Weston/Galt or Weston/Mactier arrangements.

 

[innsertnamehere]

They may purchase new subs as well, such as the line that goes to Orangeville. Liberals promised GO train service there during the election so that may happen, even if its the long term.

The Liberals actually promised quite a bit of rail expansion as they were planning to use DMUs instead of the full locomotives, doing that makes extensions like Orangeville, Uxbridge, Bolton, Etc. a lot more feasible. Of course whether it happens or not remains to be seen.

 

[TOareaFan]

They may purchase new subs as well, such as the line that goes to Orangeville. Liberals promised GO train service there during the election so that may happen, even if its the long term.

The Liberals actually promised quite a bit of rail expansion as they were planning to use DMUs instead of the full locomotives, doing that makes extensions like Orangeville, Uxbridge, Bolton, Etc. a lot more feasible. Of course whether it happens or not remains to be seen.

when did they promise rail service to Orangeville? I only ask because this editorial in the Orangeville Citizen is critical of them for just the opposite:

Similarly, all the talk at Queen’s Park about improving GO Transit’s rail services, through electrification and ultimately 15-minute service at peak periods on most of the lines, isn’t accompanied by any acknowledgment of a need for even minimal rail service out of Orangeville and Alliston.

http://citizen.on.ca/?p=2700

 

[innsertnamehere]

they had something in the platform about extending rail transit to the likes of Brantford and Dufferin County, which essentially has to mean Orangeville. they didn't discuss it much and nobody seemed to notice it, but it was there.

The exact qoute:

› GO service expansion: We will look at providing more GO options to connect
Brantford, the Niagara region, Dufferin County, and other regions outside the
GTHA to the GTHA.

it means that they will at least conduct a feasibility study on it..

 

[TOareaFan]

they had something in the platform about extending rail transit to the likes of Brantford and Dufferin County, which essentially has to mean Orangeville. they didn't discuss it much and nobody seemed to notice it, but it was there.

The exact qoute:



it means that they will at least conduct a feasibility study on it..

Not to be too picky but there is a long way between "more GO options" and a feasibility study on running rail service...no?

More GO options could, for example, be once RER is in place re-assigning the buses that used to run to train stations to be rapid/frequent GO shuttle buses.

 

[gweed123]

I brought this up in the Fantasy thread but this may be an appropriate place for the question too:

Was the GEXR line that runs from just west of Guelph to Cambridge included in the GEXR purchase last month? Or was it just the main line to Kitchener? The reason I ask is that this routing, at least on the surface, seems like a more likely candidate to bring GO rail service to Cambridge than an extension of the Milton line service, with that being on CP's main freight line and all. What's the condition of that track right now? Is it in pretty decent shape, or is it borderline abandoned?

For those wondering, the idea that I had is that there would be a semi-express service that would run from Union to Georgetown, and then run local to Guelph. There the service would split, with one branch going to Kitchener and the other to Cambridge. This way you not only avoid CP entirely, but you maximize the use of any improvements you do along the Kitchener line, particularly east of Guelph. But naturally, this set up depends on the ownership, availability, and condition of that line (don't know the name of it, if someone does please let me know), hence my question above.

 

[dunkalunk]

I brought this up in the Fantasy thread but this may be an appropriate place for the question too:

Was the GEXR line that runs from just west of Guelph to Cambridge included in the GEXR purchase last month?

Short answer, no.

Or was it just the main line to Kitchener? The reason I ask is that this routing, at least on the surface, seems like a more likely candidate to bring GO rail service to Cambridge than an extension of the Milton line service, with that being on CP's main freight line and all. What's the condition of that track right now? Is it in pretty decent shape, or is it borderline abandoned?

The line is barely used as is and would need to some major upgrades to support passenger service. There are also some serious grade-separation and upgrades that need to happen on the Guelph Subdivision along Kent Street in Guelph and at the junction in Guelph between the Guelph Sub and the Galt Spur first. There's currently a 5km/h slow order through Guelph because of the track's condition. At least now, GO owns the tracks from Silver to Park St in Kitchener so some upgrading can be done.

For those wondering, the idea that I had is that there would be a semi-express service that would run from Union to Georgetown, and then run local to Guelph. There the service would split, with one branch going to Kitchener and the other to Cambridge. This way you not only avoid CP entirely, but you maximize the use of any improvements you do along the Kitchener line, particularly east of Guelph. But naturally, this set up depends on the ownership, availability, and condition of that line (don't know the name of it, if someone does please let me know), hence my question above.

I don't think the split is a good idea... yet. The split might make sense once there's frequent DMU/EMU running between Kitchener-Guelph and Kitchener-Galt. In the short term, I think the Highway 24 corridor from Brampton through Cambridge to Guelph is an unserved cross-corridor that would help build up the demand for service on the Galt Spur and act as a train-bus extension for the Kitchener line in the mean time.

One major kink in any frequent, electrified train service on the Kitchener line is in downtown Brampton and having GO interact with CN's mainline movements through the area. It's a very expensive kink to fix either requiring lots of expropriation, tunnelling, or building some sort of bypass.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

I brought this up in the Fantasy thread but this may be an appropriate place for the question too:

Was the GEXR line that runs from just west of Guelph to Cambridge included in the GEXR purchase last month? Or was it just the main line to Kitchener? The reason I ask is that this routing, at least on the surface, seems like a more likely candidate to bring GO rail service to Cambridge than an extension of the Milton line service, with that being on CP's main freight line and all. What's the condition of that track right now? Is it in pretty decent shape, or is it borderline abandoned?

For those wondering, the idea that I had is that there would be a semi-express service that would run from Union to Georgetown, and then run local to Guelph. There the service would split, with one branch going to Kitchener and the other to Cambridge. This way you not only avoid CP entirely, but you maximize the use of any improvements you do along the Kitchener line, particularly east of Guelph. But naturally, this set up depends on the ownership, availability, and condition of that line (don't know the name of it, if someone does please let me know), hence my question above.

I believe this would be a candidate for GO or some other regional service between the tri-cities and Guelph, I agree, but as dunkalunk pointed out, there are serious challenges. This is a good illustration of them.

 

[gweed123]

Thanks for the replies gents! Yes, I figured that it probably wouldn't be a simple "plop down the stations and we're good to go" line. The question then becomes: how much would need to be spent on that line vs getting service to Cambridge via the CP line? The CP line is surely going to need some upgrades in order to run GO service. If CP demands a new track be added in order to support it, the question then becomes would the upgrades to the Galt Spur be less expensive?

And I agree with the DMU/EMU point. I think an O-Train type of service would be a nice supplement. Full GO service to Toronto on both branches, with O-Train style DMUs between Guelph & Kitchener and Guelph & Cambridge, with the Ion LRT linking Kitchener & Cambridge (the 3rd side of the triangle). If such a service were to be implemented, then similar track upgrades to what's required by GO would be required for that too. It's almost a two birds with one stone scenario, where the track upgrades then permits both types of services to operate.

As for the slow section in Guelph, presumably that section would be grade-separated as a part of the enhanced service to Kitchener, as part of the upgrades associated with the recent purchase. Based on the map, the Galt Sub splits west of where that slow zone section is, so the grade separation in Guelph would benefit both the Kitchener and Cambridge branches.

 

[ShonTron]

I believe this would be a candidate for GO or some other regional service between the tri-cities and Guelph, I agree, but as dunkalunk pointed out, there are serious challenges. This is a good illustration of them.

I'm somwhat surprised that the Fergus Spur (remnant of the former Fergus Subdivision that went to Palmerston from Lyndon Jct through Galt and Guelph) still exists. There's only one active customer left between Guelph Junction and Highway 401. AGS, the most important customer on the spurlines in Cambridge south of the 401, is gone.

It'd make a great rail trail.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

I'm somwhat surprised that the Fergus Spur (remnant of the former Fergus Subdivision that went to Palmerston from Lyndon Jct through Galt and Guelph) still exists. There's only one active customer left between Guelph Junction and Highway 401. AGS, the most important customer on the spurlines in Cambridge south of the 401, is gone.

It'd make a great rail trail.

I fully support rail trails, but not when it could come at the cost of a transit corridor. It's always easier to convert a corridor for bicycle/pedestrian use, as opposed to doing that in reverse.

Case in point: the CN Leaside spur, connecting the CP Belleville sub (north of Eglinton) to CN's Bala sub (south of York Mills). This is now a park area with a trail, but I can't help but think of what a great connection this would have been between the Don Branch and the rest of the Bala sub, for both GO and VIA services. It might have had the potential for reduced travel times, but now we will never know.

There is significant people travel between Cambridge and Guelph, and the Fergus spur currently provides a direct connection between Guelph Central Station and the former Cambridge CPR station (which may be a GO station in the future). I would not entertain the idea of a rail trail here if we could use it for transit.

 

[ShonTron]

I simply don't see a need for rail service between Cambridge and Guelph, especially on the Fergus Spur. There isn't even a direct bus service right now, though there should be. (The best route right now is taking GO Route 25 from the SmartCentres stop to Aberfoyle P&R and transferring to GO Route 29, not all that useful. The Aberfoyle stop is a lousy place to wait for a bus). Much of the demand between Guelph and Cambridge is likely heade to/from to U of G, not Downtown Guelph.

The ideal route is Ainslie St. Terminal - Hespeler Road - Hwy 401 - Brock Road/Aberfoyle - U of G - Downtown Guelph. A second route could go U of G - Hespeler Village - Sportsworld - Conestoga College.

 

[gweed123]

I simply don't see a need for rail service between Cambridge and Guelph, especially on the Fergus Spur. There isn't even a direct bus service right now, though there should be. (The best route right now is taking GO Route 25 from the SmartCentres stop to Aberfoyle P&R and transferring to GO Route 29, not all that useful. The Aberfoyle stop is a lousy place to wait for a bus). Much of the demand between Guelph and Cambridge is likely heade to/from to U of G, not Downtown Guelph.

The ideal route is Ainslie St. Terminal - Hespeler Road - Hwy 401 - Brock Road/Aberfoyle - U of G - Downtown Guelph. A second route could go U of G - Hespeler Village - Sportsworld - Conestoga College.

But it's not just between Cambridge and Guelph, it's between Cambridge and the western end of the GTA, if not Toronto itself (although that admittedly is a smaller travel pattern). Cambridge having a nearly direct link to Pearson and the northwestern GTA would be a huge bonus for the area. I'm not saying it needs 15 min electrified service or anything, but at least a few inbound and outbound trains in the AM and PM peaks.

The long term growth plan for the KWC&G area is to grow towards each other. There's going to be some kind of transit connection needed there. It may not be fully needed now, but I strongly think that it will be needed in the not too distant future. I do acknowledge that the corridor is going to need quite a bit of work, but then again so is the entire line from Kitchener to Bramalea, and especially from Kitchener to Georgetown. Track condition issues may require some money to be sunk in, but they aren't insurmountable.

 

[mpd618]

I fully support rail trails, but not when it could come at the cost of a transit corridor. It's always easier to convert a corridor for bicycle/pedestrian use, as opposed to doing that in reverse. ... There is significant people travel between Cambridge and Guelph, and the Fergus spur currently provides a direct connection between Guelph Central Station and the former Cambridge CPR station (which may be a GO station in the future). I would not entertain the idea of a rail trail here if we could use it for transit.

This is such an important point. Running even single-track DMU passenger service would warrant keeping the corridor as rail.

There isn't really any bus service between Cambridge and Guelph, but that doesn't mean there isn't demand for it. We have a very closed regulatory system for intercity buses, so much of the market is unexplored.