General cycling issues (Is Toronto bike friendly?)

[salsa]

Have there been any proposals for separated bike lanes on University, Queens Park and Avenue Road? They're perfect candidates for something similar to the cycling "superhighways" installed in London? Pair this with extended Bloor-Danforth cycle lanes, and we'd have two continuous, and relatively flat north-south and east-west cycle routes crossing much of the city.

We almost got bike lanes on University Ave. Then this happened.


Oops! Councillor's mistake derails bike lanes on University Ave.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...on-university-ave/article1367441/?service=amp

 

[Tuscani01]

Gave both the above posts 'likes', because this conversation is necessary, and reveals two serious legal issues, beside the drivers being morons:

As far as I can tell, and I'm due for a meeting with Metro Police Public Relations on this, one of the reasons the cops didn't or wouldn't come, is that the law is unclear on bike lanes, save for a few described in the HTA, but probably not tested in court yet. I don't have the HTA handy, but I can tell you that before making a turn, *the lane must be acquired* (gist) closest to the curb if turning right, or to the most outside lane if turning left. There is an exception to this if it is a multi-lane street allowing multi-lane turns to another multi-lane street. (These are marked by dashed lines to indicate the lane you must stay in while turning). *Many* minor intersections where bike-lanes cross, the solid white line demarcating the bike lane is not broken, and thus forcing drivers to make an illegal turn.

It gets worse, most if not all of the demarcated cycle infrastructure, especially the green boxes, is not accommodated for in the HTA. In other words, if you think you are safe in a green box, but traffic is trying to turn behind you, you are actually in violation of a clause of the HTA. Under the HTA, cycling infrastructure offers very little if any protection from what happened to you, save for perhaps the driver failing to attain the innermost lane (the cycle lane) before turning.

Thank God both of you are OK, but the bottom line is that you thought you were protected and safe, with the right of way, but in fact, had you been hurt, your grounds for suing for damages might not hold in court.

Think about that, and why the City and cycling advocates are so silent on it. I've brought it up a number of times in the Separated Lanes string, repeated my request for answers after posting pics and examination of the Adelaide and Bathurst new installation, and got banned for two weeks because of it.

I'll supply details if challenged.

Start asking questions! I already have, to two levels of police divisions, the last one a traffic one, and was pointed to their public relations man, it's a hot potato, but off the record, I was counseled to keep pushing for answers, their hands are tied.

More on this later when I get more definitive answers, or a definitive response that there are no answers until Queen's Park brings the HTA up-to-date. And where's the City on this? A civil action could be started for them giving the false sense of safety on bike lanes, but it would be best based on someone in an accident suing for actual damages, not altruism.

Btw: Some of the green painted parts of the cycling infrastructure are extremely slippery when wet. The grit in the paint has a very short life-span. And if they really had safety in mind, they'd use discreet purpose-mixed asphalt instead of paint, as is done in nations where they're serious about safety, but I digress.

Indeed! There are thousands of accidents not being reported. And often persons hit find out later that they were injured.

When phoning it in, state you are injured. The endorphins that kick in (adrenaline is one) mask the pain of injury unless critical. You can be injured enough for a joint never to heal properly again in a simple impact like that, even a sprain can be recurring there-after.

The driver wasn’t able to take the right-most lane, as there was a bollard in the way. And the cops didn’t come because the rules for reporting apparently changed recently. Unless there was an injury or over $1k in damages, you are directed to a collision reporting centre. (I’ll be doing so tomorrow afternoon and let you know what comes of it)

Thankfully, the adrenaline has worn off and I’m completely fine. I kind of feel bad for the driver, even though it was her fault for not looking. The system failed her, and it’s clear that it will continue to fail people as long as these rules aren’t clarified, enforced, and taught properly.

 

[steveintoronto]

Just doing some background reading from Googling for the HTA section on turning, and didn't even get there yet, this intervened:

It's an unfortunate situation for the OP.

What is the burden of proof for establishing safety in a turn? Is it absolute in that "you turned, there was a collision, therefore the turn was not safe", or is it the "reasonable man" test in that you would not reasonably anticipate being passed on the right by a bicycle at that point?

**RANT ON:

I'm all in favour of helping out bicyclists, but we have a problem in Ontario with the design of bike lanes. I suspect that municipalities are painting them without any guidance from the lawmakers. When driving a motor vehicle, to make a right hand turn I must be in the rightmost lane (ignoring dual turn lanes, etc.). Many bike lanes are painted solid white right up to the stop line. So, if the right-hand lane is designated for bikes only, I can't make a legal turn.

Now, some municipalities put a broken line near the intersection, which I suppose makes it legal for me to use that lane to turn right. The problem is that because motor vehicles and bikes have the same stop line, when there are high volumes of bikes using the bike lane (think around a university for example), we have a situation where this stream of bikes prevents motor vehicles from entering the lane at all, and hence from turning right regardless of the light colour. If there were a stop line for bikes about 2 car lengths further back, then at least a couple cars could get through. That is if the cyclists actually stop correctly.

Does anyone actually think these things through, or do they just send a couple of guys out with a line painter?

https://www.ontariohighwaytrafficac...roper-right-turn-bicycle-collision-t7758.html

 

[steveintoronto]

This is the location btw, to clear up road markings:

Exactly! That mistake is made time and again on Toronto bike lanes, but is just one of many. The Bloor St lanes are legion for them, and one of the highest accident corners in Toronto? Bloor and Christie. And guess what....?

WTF are they thinking? The most horrific aspect of this is that pointing it out to the "Cycling is the work of GOD and infallible" crowd gets you derided and then banned because some people can't deal with the truth.

I continue to be boggled by the number of persons proclaiming how safe they are on cycling lanes. Far from it...

Nederlanders and the Danes would be absolutely mortified at how bad Toronto does this.

Btw: Note how sharp the Aussies have become on infrastructure planning: (this is long, but extremely revealing, you must listen closely for the questions from the floor, which is where the Aussie delegates make some excellent points)

 

[Tuscani01]

I continue to be boggled by the number of persons proclaiming how safe they are on cycling lanes. Far from it...

Nederlanders and the Danes would be absolutely mortified at how bad Toronto does this.

Btw: Note how sharp the Aussies have become on infrastructure planning: (this is long, but extremely revealing, you must listen closely for the questions from the floor, which is where the Aussie delegates make some excellent points)

Don’t get me wrong - despite what happened today, I still feel much safer on cycle lanes. I’ve biked in Amsterdam too, and despite all the pretty pictures of fully separated lanes, they too have on-street lanes created with just a line of paint.

The difference is that drivers in Amsterdam are far more attentive to cyclists than drivers in Toronto. We’ll get there shortly. More cyclists on the road in this city is definitely having an effect on driver behaviour. We just need better driver training to ensure those from outside of the city who don’t have to share a road with bikes are prepared to encounter bikes and bike lanes in areas where you do have to.

My mom actually got into the same accident this week, but she was the one behind the wheel of the car. The cyclist was fine, but she’s always mentioned that she’s scared to drive on streets with bike lanes because it’s hard to turn and she’s scared that she may hit someone. It’s not something she comes across in Mississauga, so it’s quite foreign to her when she comes downtown. There needs to be better training in the GTA, especially since road conditions vary from rural, to suburban, to urban in so little time.

I learned to drive in Mississauga and took my road test in Brampton. Never once had to deal with bike lanes until moving to Toronto and purchasing a car a few years ago. Learning on my own, in real life conditions shouldn’t be a thing.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Don’t get me wrong - despite what happened today, I still feel much safer on cycle lanes. I’ve biked in Amsterdam too, and despite all the pretty pictures of fully separated lanes, they too have on-street lanes created with just a line of paint.

The difference is that drivers in Amsterdam are far more attentive to cyclists than drivers in Toronto. We’ll get there shortly. More cyclists on the road in this city is definitely having an effect on driver behaviour. We just need better driver training to ensure those from outside of the city who don’t have to share a road with bikes are prepared to encounter bikes and bike lanes in areas where you do have to.

My mom actually got into the same accident this week, but she was the one behind the wheel of the car. The cyclist was fine, but she’s always mentioned that she’s scared to drive on streets with bike lanes because it’s hard to turn and she’s scared that she may hit someone. It’s not something she comes across in Mississauga, so it’s quite foreign to her when she comes downtown. There needs to be better training in the GTA, especially since road conditions vary from rural, to suburban, to urban in so little time.

I learned to drive in Mississauga and took my road test in Brampton. Never once had to deal with bike lanes until moving to Toronto and purchasing a car a few years ago. Learning on my own, in real life conditions shouldn’t be a thing.

The driving tests seem to avoid real-life situations.

Snow storm? Reschedule the test.

 

[salsa]

This is the location btw, to clear up road markings: View attachment 124930

I think there should have been green paint wherever the bike lane crosses an intersection.

 

[ADRM]

To the University bike lanes question, funnily enough (perhaps that's what prompted the initial question), Alex Bozikovic (and many other folks) posted a couple images from the Public Work (not ever to be confused with PWIC) presentation that I believe was a part of Jan Gehl's presentation on the weekend depicting their blue-sky proposal to re-imagine University in service of turning it into a real, usable public space from the dangerous vehicular highway that it is today.

Now, there are some obvious design flaws (but remember this is nothing remotely close to a "real" proposal), but in general I adore the idea of making University a place that we can actually be proud of and interact with. I agree that it'd be a really fantastic and valuable cycling connection for a whole bunch of reasons, though obviously the cycling infrastructure shown in these renders is a bad joke.

Those images are also interesting taken along with the fact that the Planning Department has included University as a priority cycling connection in their TOCore visioning document. A number of Planning employees were tweeting the above images and engaging in discussions with folks about them.

 

[steveintoronto]

We just need better driver training to ensure those from outside of the city who don’t have to share a road with bikes are prepared to encounter bikes and bike lanes in areas where you do have to.

Putting the blame on 'outsiders' is more than rich. Ontarians in general are not good drivers compared to those I've encountered when living in Europe and the US (albeit I've only lived in certain areas of both).

The bottom line is that that unlike yourself, I don't believe that Ontarian drivers will improve much (some will). Just take a drive on the highway, and watch how poorly many are controlling their vehicles. They sway all over the road, brake late, don't signal in many cases, and in urban areas, often drive too fast. Noticed how poorly they park adjacent to bike lanes on the hashed painted lines? Many are just poor drivers who shouldn't be on the road.

It's the reason we need *physically separated bike lanes*.

I think there should have been green paint wherever the bike lane crosses an intersection.

This is a classic case of where the green strip is needed! What isn't useful is to put too much green in areas where it makes little difference, and desensitizes drivers to the 'alert' factor. In intersections, one of the most dangerous places by far, green to mark the bike 'right of way' (with provisos, of course) is an excellent idea.

Edit to Add: If anyone doubts my claim on Ontario drivers being poor, and the entrenched social dysfunction that produces it, look no further than shopping mall parking lots.

You'll note that few signal, check mirrors, give way to pedestrians, and display social grace where both drivers would be better off from doing so.

And here's why:

[...]
If this parking lot was in Ontario, you'd be right – the rules of the road don't apply on private property there – but in Alberta, traffic rules, speed limits and road signs work the same way, wherever you're driving.

Laws vary from province to province, but the road legislation in Alberta and B.C., for example, applies on privately owned property, like the parking lot at Costco, for instance.


"In Alberta, the Traffic Safety Act applies anywhere a car can be driven that's accessible to the public, even if it's privately owned," says Trent Bancarz, spokesman for Alberta Transportation. "So, yes, stop signs and speed limits on parking lots have the force the law."

So, if you're in a fender bender in a parking lot in Alberta, you have to call police if there's damage over $2,000 or if anyone has been injured. Police would investigate and lay charges under the Traffic Safety Act – the same way they would if the accident was on a highway or on a residential street. Alberta Transportation would only issue demerits if somebody was charged, Bancarz says.


The demerits are applied automatically, based on the offence.

In B.C., it works the same way under the province's Motor Vehicle Act. The police have to be called if damage is over $1,000 or if there's an injury.

Ontario is an exception – its Highway Traffic Act (HTA) doesn't apply at all on shopping centre parking lots because they're considered private property.

"In Ontario, traffic signs and speed limits in parking lots aren't enforceable," says Terry L. Fox, manager of the legal advisory department for the Canadian Automobile Association (CAA) of South Central Ontario. "You have to be on a highway, and any public road is considered a highway."

"Not that we'd advise anybody to speed or talk on their cell phones in a parking lot. But, no, the rules of the road don't apply."


Because Ontario parking lots aren't considered roads, you can operate a vehicle in them without a driver's license, vehicle registration or insurance – although you'd need to take a public road to get to a parking lot in the first place.

"That one always surprises people," Fox says.

That doesn't mean drivers can do whatever they want in the Wild West style lawlessness of a Mississauga parking lot.

"You would be charged under the Criminal Code for dangerous operation of a motor vehicle," Fox says. That's a federal offence and applies everywhere in Canada. Accidents in Ontario have to be reported to police if damage is over $1,000 or if there has been an injury.

Some large shopping centres have made arrangements with their local governments so that the municipality classifies the shopping centre's main roads as a highway, in order for them to be covered by the HTA, and speed limits and road signs can be enforced, says Ontario's Ministry of Transportation.

Even when the rules of the road don't legally apply, drivers should still be following them in parking lots, says Bobbie Turcotte, manager of CAA driver training.


That means, for example, not zooming diagonally though empty parking spaces to get to an exit more quickly.

"We'd never have students driving through empty parking spaces," Turcotte says. "Instead of cutting through spaces and lanes where there are no vehicles, you should treat the lanes in the parking lot as though they are lanes of traffic on a road."

So, do drivers think they can do whatever they want in parking lots, especially when the rules don't apply?

"I don't think people think that way. This is just my opinion, but I think if someone's a conscientious driver, they'll be that way wherever they are," Turcotte says. "People who are lousy drivers in parking lots will be lousy drivers on the road."

Turcotte says drivers in parking lots need to be especially cautious because of the concentration of pedestrians.

"There are so many blind areas. The could be a three-year-old darting out from between two cars.... A lot of it is common sense. You should still be scanning for oncoming cars and shoulder checking."

"If you hit an intersection in a parking lot, you follow the basic rules. Whoever gets there first, goes first. You yield to the person on your right."

When it comes to deciding fault for insurance purposes, parking lot thoroughfares, whether or not they're marked, usually have the right of way, according to the Insurance Bureau of Canada (IBC).[...]

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/gl...e4216574/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&

This lack of common sense by drivers in Ontario parking lots is emblematic of how they treat cyclists on the road. And the HTA is a good part of the problem.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Would anyone say that parking performance is proportional to driving skill? Because either people care a lot about how well they fit the space or they don’t care at all and park crooked or cross the line. This relates to how well drivers drive in their lane boundaries, aware of what’s around them, and everything else that has to do with vehicle awareness.

 

[Avenue]

https://twitter.com/JohnTory/status/922483795563089922

I don't get how this is supposed to overcome congestion. Bikes don't create congestion because they are small, nimble, and do not get parked on the streets. This thing, not so much.

 

[ADRM]

https://twitter.com/JohnTory/status/922483795563089922

I don't get how this is supposed to overcome congestion. Bikes don't create congestion because they are small, nimble, and do not get parked on the streets. This thing, not so much.

I mean, I'm with you on the question of extent, but if any number of these can replace the large UPS trucks (at a ratio somewhere close-ish to 1:1), then in real terms we're talking about a better use of scarce space. But agreed that it's marginal for the foreseeable future.

 

[PinkLucy]

Smaller than delivery trucks. Cargo/delivery bikes are used all over Amsterdam for example.

 

[steveintoronto]

Smaller than delivery trucks. Cargo/delivery bikes are used all over Amsterdam for example.

There's a massive difference though, they are lower centre of gravity, and don't have side panels like the pic in the press. Ever been in a strong gust of wind on a bike? That's right, you almost go over. Imagine that in a panel van the size of what's shown. Guaranteed they'll tip.

Someone's not thought this through.

And if the gust is head-on instead of behind or from the sides, this structure is going over backwards:

As the pressure flows under that canopy, and assisted by venturi lo-pressure over top, you'll be lucky that it just flips and doesn't get airborne.

 

[Avenue]

Smaller than delivery trucks. Cargo/delivery bikes are used all over Amsterdam for example.

You can always use a Euro style smaller van that's about the size of this bike. Still think this is all more show than functionality or innovation.