General cycling issues (Is Toronto bike friendly?)

[BMO]

I've been biking for a few weeks now and I have to say as a driver and a cyclist it absolutely pisses me off when I see cyclists speeding through stop signs and red lights when vehicles are approaching. On top of this I've seen many cyclists create dangerous situations on their own and have the audacity to harass motorists out of frustration all while not wearing a helmet. It would never be OK fr a pedestrian to just cross the street without looking, I don't get why it seems ok to do so on a bike going 30-40 km/h.

Honestly, if cyclists want to be respected on the roadway it's got to go both ways. The amount of cyclists that treat sidewalks like a bike lane and use pedestrian sidewalks as a crossing is ridiculous. Even when I'm cycling I don't even know what to expect from other cyclists half the time. I think MTO should come up with some sort of cycling course that gets passed throughout the school system for people to understand what is expected of them on the roadway. I also think that the police, instead of ticketing minor offences like going through a stop sign, should force riders to take a course on cycling safety.

 

[pstogios]

I've been biking for a few weeks now and I have to say as a driver and a cyclist it absolutely pisses me off when I see cyclists speeding through stop signs and red lights when vehicles are approaching. On top of this I've seen many cyclists create dangerous situations on their own and have the audacity to harass motorists out of frustration all while not wearing a helmet. It would never be OK fr a pedestrian to just cross the street without looking, I don't get why it seems ok to do so on a bike going 30-40 km/h.

Honestly, if cyclists want to be respected on the roadway it's got to go both ways. The amount of cyclists that treat sidewalks like a bike lane and use pedestrian sidewalks as a crossing is ridiculous. Even when I'm cycling I don't even know what to expect from other cyclists half the time.

I agree whole-heartedly that respectful actions must be demonstrated if respect is expected to be earned. After being primarily a pedestrian and occasional TTCer for years, I started commuting to work by bike this year and each and every day I’m shocked by the level of disregard cyclists have for the basic rules of the road. The worst offenders of course are the “food couriers” (Uber Eats, Foodora, etc)—when I see one of these it’s pretty much guaranteed that they will ignore stop lights, signs, crosswalks, bike or car lanes, won’t respect queue lines, won’t hand signal, and will pass dangerously. And then there’s the “pros” that are decked out in their multi-branded spandex and $10000 bikes that have the mysterious properties of giving these people a huge sense of entitlement that they can do anything on the road.

But certainly the disregard for the rules isn’t restricted to these couriers and elites; it’s almost as if being on a bike that lets you travel a little fast gives people a sense of invincibility.

I’ve taken it upon myself to actually confront cyclists that blatantly disregard the rules. I point out to these people what they are doing wrong. I’ve been met with reactions like “I don’t need a lesson” to “so what if I ran the red, did I get hit?” to being ignored. When I approached one woman that ran a stop sign while I was stopped at a stop sign at the same intersection, she said “have a nice day”—this pleasant reaction was very much in the minority that I have encountered. Most cyclists expect to be able to do whatever they want on the road.

My bottom line is I that have learned that a significant proportion, as many as 30 to 40%, break the rules of the road. Thus, we should not be surprised that drivers, pedestrians, and even other cyclists (like me) have low opinions of cyclists on the whole. We have a big problem with the basics of respect for the rules in this city.

 

[amnesiajune]

Coming to Ontario soon?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...angerous-careless-driving-jesse-a7957996.html

We already have that. Bikes here are governed by most of the same laws as cars. Any law regarding "motor vehicles" applied to motor-assisted bikes (not power-assisted bikes, a federal regulatory distinction), and any law regarding "vehicles" applies to all bikes.

 

[bilked]

I agree whole-heartedly that respectful actions must be demonstrated if respect is expected to be earned.

Most cyclists expect to be able to do whatever they want on the road.

I'm a law-abiding car driver and I command respect. Because I respect the law!!

Well, except for maximum speed limits! But that's just the flow of traffic! Lol

Oh...and illegal u-turns, rolling stops at stop signs, pick-ups/drop-offs in bike lanes, not signalling lane changes, checking my phone, keeping two hands on steering wheel, pushing through late yellow lights, turning with pedestrians in intersection, flagging cabs in the middle of street, blasting my horn when I'm emotional, singing yapping eating while driving (ever heard of a drive thru!), flipping on my hazard lights to grab coffee, idling for no reason at all, sticking nose of my car out into bike lanes when angling for an opening to turn, illegal parking is fine if I'm still sitting in my car right? The one metre passing rule? Never heard of it.
Oh by the way check out my sweet aftermarket tinted windows. But who cares, it's not like my car weighs 4000 pounds and people need to see me!
that's why I have insurance! And so what if we constantly lobby our MLAs to increase the statutory thresholds and limits on auto accident victim's civil remedies! Lower my premiums already!

But seriously...cyclists

 

[BMO]

I'm a law-abiding car driver and I command respect. Because I respect the law!!

Well, except for maximum speed limits! But that's just the flow of traffic! Lol

Oh...and illegal u-turns, rolling stops at stop signs, pick-ups/drop-offs in bike lanes, not signalling lane changes, checking my phone, keeping two hands on steering wheel, pushing through late yellow lights, turning with pedestrians in intersection, flagging cabs in the middle of street, blasting my horn when I'm emotional, singing yapping eating while driving (ever heard of a drive thru!), flipping on my hazard lights to grab coffee, idling for no reason at all, sticking nose of my car out into bike lanes when angling for an opening to turn, illegal parking is fine if I'm still sitting in my car right? The one metre passing rule? Never heard of it.
Oh by the way check out my sweet aftermarket tinted windows. But who cares, it's not like my car weighs 4000 pounds and people need to see me!
that's why I have insurance! And so what if we constantly lobby our MLAs to increase the statutory thresholds and limits on auto accident victim's civil remedies! Lower my premiums already!

But seriously...cyclists

I know your post was made in jest, but I mean...if taking bad habits from drivers is justification for cyclists to ride recklessly...I'm not sure that's really helping anyone. Not to mention when a cyclist messes up there's a higher chance they may be killed. Accidents are accidents for a reason, if we want to reduce pedestrian and cycling fatalities work needs to be done on both ends of the spectrum. When you speed through a stop sign without stopping it's dangerous for three reasons:

1. Stop signs are usually put in place because of poor sightlines for drivers. A cyclist zooming near a set of parked cars is way harder to see than a truck, or full-sized vehicle.

2. Unless the driver knows there are lots of cyclists on a street they likely don't know to expect cyclists just speeding through an all-way stop sign. Unfortunately the law is the law and the average driver just isn't expect a 30-40km/h bike coming up in a blind spot.

3. Even if we disregard the legalities and poor sightlines, it's just plain dangerous and if a cyclist gets hit they're going to likely be in a worse condition than the car. I know it's a pain to have to stop and start on a bike but those extra 5 seconds could literally be the difference between a cyclist avoiding a negligent driver and injury/death.

Pedestrians make eye-contact with drivers when they're crossing to prevent getting hit. We need to foster a similar relationship or simply change road signage to take out the stop signs on the biking corridor. When I drive I always keep an eye on cars in case, as you said, they do U-turns, or randomly pull-over without checking/signalling. I'm not going to go through a stop sign or red light and risk my life. A bit of defensive cycling can protect people from negligent drivers.

 

[LNahid2000]

2. Unless the driver knows there are lots of cyclists on a street they likely don't know to expect cyclists just speeding through an all-way stop sign. Unfortunately the law is the law and the average driver just isn't expect a 30-40km/h bike coming up in a blind spot.

I don't usually see cyclists speed through stop signs at 30-40km/h...actually, on my 60km ride last night, I found it very difficult to get above 35km/h, and I'm a pretty athletic guy.

A lot of cyclists do yield at stop signs which is also technically illegal but has been proven to be safe in other jurisdictions. Most motorists also yield at stop signs though; if you observe motor vehicles at a stop sign for a few minutes, you won't see many wheels come to a complete stop.

 

[BMO]

I don't usually see cyclists speed through stop signs at 30-40km/h...actually, on my 60km ride last night, I found it very difficult to get above 35km/h, and I'm a pretty athletic guy.

A lot of cyclists do yield at stop signs which is also technically illegal but has been proven to be safe in other jurisdictions. Most motorists also yield at stop signs though; if you observe motor vehicles at a stop sign for a few minutes, you won't see many wheels come to a complete stop.

Your mileage may vary, going down Shaw from Davenport is all downhill and I'm not athletic at all and myself and everyone around me gets up to close to those speeds. You're right it's probably not up at those speeds on a flat roadway.

I think Yielding should be the minimum, and I think that's fair, not everyone goes the speed limit, people bend the rules. I have to admit I rarely see many people yield, but as with anything, these are just my personal observations and maybe going up or downhill may make people less inclined to yield, etc. That's not to say in other parts of the city there isn't a better culture of adhering to the rules. That's not to say it isn't a problem anywhere. Even as someone who works in the transportation industry I don't even know proficiently all the rules of how I should ride my bike on the roadway, but it's something we need to work on as cycling becomes increasingly more popular in the city.

 

[muller877]

I don't usually see cyclists speed through stop signs at 30-40km/h...actually, on my 60km ride last night, I found it very difficult to get above 35km/h, and I'm a pretty athletic guy.

A lot of cyclists do yield at stop signs which is also technically illegal but has been proven to be safe in other jurisdictions. Most motorists also yield at stop signs though; if you observe motor vehicles at a stop sign for a few minutes, you won't see many wheels come to a complete stop.

I actually live right beside an all way stop sign that is fairly busy with cyclists. And on a hill. And a blind corner. Here are my observations from when I am doing yard work:

Cars
- 50% of cars come to a complete stop
- 35% of cars do a rolling stop (i.e. 1-5 km/hr)
- 10% of cars slow down (10 km/hr - ish) & only stop if there are other cars in the intersection
- 5% of cars are idiots that will honk at you if you actually stop. Or come to a complete stop only to pretend they are at the race track and rev their engine.

Bikes
- 25% ignore the stop sign even if there are vehicles at the stop sign
- 25% will not slow down unless there is a vehicle at the intersection
- 25% slow down but will not stop (10 km/hr-ish)
- 15% will do the Idaho stop (a rolling stop)
- 10% will stop

If you include an Idaho stop (i.e. rolling stop) you are looking at around 25% of the bikes following the law vs 80% for cars. There is something seriously wrong with the cyclist culture that many do not have a problem with this. (100% should be the goal for both).

I am 100% supportive of red light cameras at stop signs which take pictures of both cyclists and cars that do not stop (giving both the Idaho Stop as a warning). Cars get a mailed ticket. Cyclists pictures get put in a database and we use facial recognition in cop cars to pull them over and fine them (if they do not have ID on them we impound their bikes until they pay the fine).

 

[aquateam]

I'm a cyclist who follows the "Idaho stop"... legal status is kind of murky since I know the city recommended to the province to allow them but I don't think the highway traffic act has been updated.

Normally whenever I come to a complete stop at a 4-way stop with a vehicle the end result is always a politeness dance where they insist I go and I insist they go and I end up ultimately going, slowing both of us down.

A couple common-sense things I do on a bike that I was shocked to find out aren't legal:

• Using the pedestrian signals as cyclist signals, considering that I could just as easily dismount and become a pedestrian. This is a big deal biking through Westmount because all the intersections have scramble crossings where pedestrians can go both directions but cars can't.
• Turning right on red lights: I understand and appreciate the safety argument for cars, but there is no reason why this would apply to bikes too.

Behaviour that angers/annoys me from other cyclists:

• Riding on the sidewalk when there is a bike lane - if there was ever an argument for not making bike lanes, these guys are making it
• Riding on a bike lane... in the wrong direction - there is barely enough room for people going the correct way without an idiot mowing us down
• Riding at night without lights - if me, a cyclist, almost hits you because I can't see you, what will happen with a car?
• Wearing a helmet, but not buckling the strap - you get all of the disadvantages of wearing a helmet (risk-compensation, messed-up hair, etc.) but none of the benefits. Whenever I see someone doing this I assume they have a learning disability.
• Wearing a helmet, but not having lights at night - so you show you care about safety but you're skipping the actual legally required safety equipment? Helmets prevent some injuries during an accident, lights prevent accidents from happening in the first place.

With the cyclist-bashing out of the way I just want to make something clear: there is a big distinction between cyclists breaking the rules and cars.

When a cyclist runs a red, he takes his life into his hands. When a car runs a red, they take other peoples' lives into their own hands. It's the moral difference between putting a gun to your own head or to someone else's. It's why attempted murder is a crime but not attempted suicide.

So moralizing about scofflaw cyclists is a fun activity for Sun columnists but let's not pretend that cyclists not coming to complete stops at stop signs is a threat to public safety.

 

[BMO]

With the cyclist-bashing out of the way I just want to make something clear: there is a big distinction between cyclists breaking the rules and cars.

When a cyclist runs a red, he takes his life into his hands. When a car runs a red, they take other peoples' lives into their own hands. It's the moral difference between putting a gun to your own head or to someone else's. It's why attempted murder is a crime but not attempted suicide.

So moralizing about scofflaw cyclists is a fun activity for Sun columnists but let's not pretend that cyclists not coming to complete stops at stop signs is a threat to public safety.

It is when we have the highest rates of pedestrian and cyclist death in the city this year. I guess there's no issue though because they chose to get killed? Not following the logic there...sorry.

 

[ADRM]

It is when we have the highest rates of pedestrian and cyclist death in the city this year. I guess there's no issue though because they chose to get killed? Not following the logic there...sorry.

Ah, yes, Victim Blaming 101. Regular reminder here that pedestrian and cyclist deaths are typically the fault of the driver.

Cyclists should follow the laws, obviously (but, man it sure would be great if drivers of the vehicles that actually routinely kill or seriously injure people did as well), but the indefatigable truth is that there are more car drivers doing much more dangerous things on a more regular basis and to argue otherwise is an exercise in the utilization of alternative facts.

 

[BMO]

Ah, yes, Victim Blaming 101. Regular reminder here that pedestrian and cyclist deaths are typically the fault of the driver.

Cyclists should follow the laws, obviously (but, man it sure would be great if drivers of the vehicles that actually routinely kill or seriously injure people did as well), but the indefatigable truth is that there are more car drivers doing much more dangerous things on a more regular basis and to argue otherwise is an exercise in the utilization of alternative facts.

Can anyone actually provide real facts that the majority of cyclist/vehicular collisions in Toronto have cars at fault? Can't seem to find anything more than % of cyclists killed, etc

 

[jaybe]

Here's some good news. The East Don Trail extension connecting the East Don Trail from Don Mills to Eglinton will proceed.
https://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=3a178dd3f2ce1410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

It appears that there were 4 letters of objection to the Proposal and individual EA's were requested. The Environment Minister, Chris Ballard, exercised his right to waive the requests and has provided the approval to proceed with some minimal conditions. Very nice because there are so few stop signs on these trails. .

 

[aquateam]

It is when we have the highest rates of pedestrian and cyclist death in the city this year. I guess there's no issue though because they chose to get killed? Not following the logic there...sorry.

But are cyclists getting killed because they are rolling through all-way stops or because they get hooked and dragged when going on greens by drivers doing right turns without checking their blind spots?

Generally (I can only say generally because I am dismayed by some people's lack of situational awareness) cyclists are very aware of what they are doing and what the environment is - they are not encased in a climate controlled metal cocoon insulated from outside noise with music and/or talk radio blaring. So cyclist deaths are rarely from cyclists taking calculated risks at empty intersections, more often from drivers being oblivious to the people around them.

Can anyone actually provide real facts that the majority of cyclist/vehicular collisions in Toronto have cars at fault?

Here are the facts for Vancouver:

For an academic paper that involves data from Toronto, luckily there is a study right here:

It concludes that cyclists are responsible for ~10% of all collisions.

This report from Toronto Public Health shows that in pedestrian-car collisions the result is similar: motorists are at fault in two thirds of the cases:

 

[steveintoronto]

Just up:
Bloor bike lanes should stay, city report finds

Transportation staff are recommending the pilot project of downtown lanes be made permanent.