Dichotomy
Banned
But my opinion is in the majority and since this is a democracy (last time I looked), I will continue to vote with my car.
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General cycling issues (Is Toronto bike friendly?)
- Thread starter rp07
- Start date
But my opinion is in the majority and since this is a democracy (last time I looked), I will continue to vote with my car.
confusion
Active Member
I thought we were talking about bicycles... Let me check the title of this thread...
confusion
Active Member
And that is why big city economies in North America are set to suffer just like they did in the 80's.
TKTKTK
Senior Member
doady
Senior Member
You were talking about what causes road damage
Hmm, 50 cars vs 1 streetcar or 1 bus.
I think the 50 cars would do more damage.
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
TKTKTK
Senior Member
H
Hydrogen
Guest
Why's that?
confusion
Active Member
Because oil = money
adma
Superstar
Yeah, but you're gay. Most people aren't. Majority rules, so you're a useless piece of s**t
Dichotomy
Banned
???? ARE YOU SERIOUS? The mess on Parliament St. is not from cars. The concrete expansion with the steel streetcar tracks cause a lot of damage. Hell, anyone who lives beside the streetcar tracks can feel them lumbering by. I'd hardly equate a 3,400 lb car with that kind of damage.
And what about all the rippled asphalt along streets, like Pharmacy, where the buses constantly pull over to pick up passengers?
Dichotomy
Banned
Sorry if my opinon bothers you. Like I've said many times, the underground garages in the condos along Queens Quay are not empty, nor are the ones in City Place. Or Water Park City.Besides, you are correct about one thing: only about 6-9% cycle or walk to work, yet they are dominating city hall, and I'd have to agree that the 6-9% gay population also inordinately influences politics, too.
Something to think about.
Oh, and Adma, lay off the booze. At 1 a.m. you shouldn't be typing while drunk.
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
Well, I can't speak authoritatively on those other places because I never lived there but, if we're going to use anecdotal evidence, the garage at RoCP is about 40% full.
adma
Superstar
I don't drink. And I don't need a smiley to be sarcastic.
dt_toronto_geek
Superstar
Bicycles, sidewalks don't mix well
And the situation can only get worse as more people turn to cycling to save money and the environment
Oct 11, 2008 04:30 AM
Jack Lakey
Staff Reporter
Few people would argue that bicycles and people on foot are not a dangerous mix – except those cyclists who apparently believe city sidewalks intended for pedestrians also belong to them.
And not without reason; cyclists never finish first in collisions with vehicles and are justifiably fearful of a fast-moving truck, inches from their handlebars. They are run down, maimed and killed with frightening efficiency.
Sidewalks amount to a safety zone for cyclists, offering a buffer from menacing traffic.
But after a Sept. 22 Fixer column about a 69-year-old "raging granny" who refuses to yield the sidewalk to cyclists who won't ride in bike lanes created for them, we've been deluged with comments, many from seniors who feel equally menaced by fast-moving handlebars just inches from their elbows.
It might come as a surprise to cyclists – accustomed to the righteous role of victim in all violent encounters with traffic – that when a bike blows past a pedestrian from behind, so close the breeze from their passing can be felt, it is no less intimidating than their own close calls with bigger, faster vehicles.
The column generated 143 comments on The Fixer's webpage (www.thestar.com/thefixer), along with more than 40 emails and calls. Most agreed that a convergence of cyclists and pedestrians is uneasy at best, and sometimes a recipe for injuries and disaster.
The situation can only get worse as more people turn to bikes as a cheaper and environmentally friendly mode of travel – with the blessing of city hall, which encourages cycling as a way to reduce gridlock and greenhouse gas emissions from vehicles.
It doesn't help that the city has fallen behind in its plan to create bike lanes on city streets. Right now, there are 89 kilometres of bike lanes, including 12 kilometres added in 2008, when the original goal was to increase total bike lanes this year by 50 kilometres. The long-term plan is to create 1,000 kilometres of bike lanes and separate bike paths in the city – an oft-delayed goal now set for 2012.
The most startling email came from Patti McKenna, about two women walking with a group of friends, as they often do on Saturdays, who were "mowed down by an irate cyclist who screamed and yelled at them even after he knocked them over," in Étienne Brulé Park.
One was bruised and battered, while "the other suffered a broken jaw which had to be wired shut, stitches on her mouth and other injuries."
"He continued to yell at her in this state as she lay on the ground, bleeding and hurt," before fleeing, said McKenna, adding the women hiked four kilometres back to a parking lot while nursing their injuries.
Ralston Ayling, a retired Toronto police officer, emailed to say he had investigated an accident involving a cyclist who was "weaving in and out through pedestrians" on a Kingston Rd. sidewalk when he "ran over an elderly lady who had just stepped out of the doorway of a dry cleaner's. The victim suffered a broken hip and was hospitalized as a result."
The cyclist was charged with careless driving and went to trial, where Ayling said he "kept insisting the pedestrian was at fault," saying, `The old lady just stepped right out onto the sidewalk without looking.'"
Margaret Hoops wrote to say that "I have fortunately not been run over by a cyclist – yet," but she has noticed a marked increase in cyclists on the sidewalk.
"They are everywhere. They race down the Davisville hill at 30 km/h, dressed in Spandex and helmets. If you tell them to get on the road, they are likely to tell you to f--- off."
Many riders went to the heart of the issue, saying they cycle on the sidewalk because it's too scary on the road, even in a bike lane. Some said they approach people slowly and swing wide around them, detouring onto the boulevard or road when necessary, trying to share the sidewalk while respecting the primacy of pedestrians.
That's about the most courtesy you could expect, and the best way to prevent collisions between cyclists and people, but it's still a violation of a city bylaw prohibiting bikes with wheels larger than 61 centimetres (24 inches) from sidewalks, punishable by a $90 fine.
Since the bylaw is enforced only by police, who usually have bigger fish to fry, most cyclists are able to get away with riding on the sidewalk, said Toronto police Sgt. Tim Burrows. When a charge is laid, it often involves officers who patrol on bikes, or downtown beat cops who stop a bicycle courier for cutting it too close with pedestrians.
"When it comes to the downtown core, or congested areas, sidewalk riding is an absolute danger to pedestrians, even though the argument from the cyclist is that it's too dangerous for them on the road," said Burrows.
Suburban areas with wide, busy arterial roads and sidewalks with fewer pedestrians amount to a grey area in terms of enforcement, he said. While it's safer for cyclists to be on the sidewalk, it's still illegal, but police in those areas are usually in cars and not focusing on cyclists.
A total of 2,833 charges were laid by Toronto police against cyclists this year up to Oct. 8, but the data doesn't differentiate between offences, Burrows said. Many are for riding on the sidewalk, but he couldn't provide a precise number.
In 2007, a total of 2,038 cyclists were charged as of Oct. 8, while 1,073 were charged up to the same date in 2006, Burrows said, adding that in the past two years officers have been more proactive about citing offences by cyclists.
Police don't collect data on collisions between pedestrians and cyclists because there is no legal requirement for cyclists to carry identification, or for such accidents to be reported to police, he said.
The city bylaw is based on wheel size because it allows children on small bikes to learn to ride on the sidewalk, while recognizing it's difficult for police to enforce age-based bylaws because most children don't carry identification.
A new wrinkle was recently added to the mix when small electric scooters – not the kind used by disabled people, but two-wheeled models similar to the gas-powered Vespa – began to ply the streets.
A couple of emails from readers said they spotted people riding them on sidewalks, an observation we've twice made ourselves in the past two weeks, once on Kingston Rd., where a guy was firing along the sidewalk near Warden Ave., and more recently on Parliament St., where a woman was weaving through pedestrians.
The provincial transportation ministry has yet to decide if electric bikes should be licensed, like gas-powered scooters, and continues to study the issue, according to its website.
City Councillor Adrian Heaps (Ward 35, Scarborough Southwest), who chairs council's cycling advisory committee, said continuing to expand Toronto's growing network of bike lanes, along with educating cyclists on how to use them safely and confidently, will eventually steer some cyclists off sidewalks.
But short of a massive, city-sponsored public education program, teaching cyclists to use the bike lanes and stay off the sidewalks is a slow, long-term process, said Heaps.
Barbara Wentworth, a bicycle safety planner with the city, is also an instructor with Toronto's CAN-BIKE program, which teaches cyclists how to safely navigate streets without getting into an accident.
Course costs range up to $100 for a three-day program that offers advanced training on how to use the streets, said Wentworth. But the bigger challenge is teaching younger people to move from the sidewalk to the street.
"What we're taught as children is to stay on the sidewalk, as far away as possible from the cars," said Wentworth. "It's better for children learning to ride to be on the sidewalk, but it becomes a habit, and after that a lot of people don't even know they're not supposed to be there."
The courses teach cyclists to "safely and confidently use bike lanes and move in and out of the traffic so that you feel more comfortable and are not intimidated by it," she said.
"It all comes down to an issue of how drivers and cyclists use the space on the road," said Wentworth, noting that a "lack of civility" only adds to the problem.
It would help if a program was developed to teach school-age kids how to make a safe transition from sidewalks to roads, she said, noting that a city study a few years ago revealed that most of the cyclists involved in collisions with cars were teenagers. But there's no funding for such a program.
Dan Egan, who's in charge of the city's cycling initiatives, agreed that additional bike lanes should ease the problem.
"We want to create a safe space for cyclists on the roadway, and create the conditions for cyclists to feel comfortable in them," he said. "We get pressure all the time to let cyclists use the sidewalks, but it's really not the right approach."
And the situation can only get worse as more people turn to cycling to save money and the environment
Oct 11, 2008 04:30 AM
Jack Lakey
Staff Reporter
Few people would argue that bicycles and people on foot are not a dangerous mix – except those cyclists who apparently believe city sidewalks intended for pedestrians also belong to them.
And not without reason; cyclists never finish first in collisions with vehicles and are justifiably fearful of a fast-moving truck, inches from their handlebars. They are run down, maimed and killed with frightening efficiency.
Sidewalks amount to a safety zone for cyclists, offering a buffer from menacing traffic.
But after a Sept. 22 Fixer column about a 69-year-old "raging granny" who refuses to yield the sidewalk to cyclists who won't ride in bike lanes created for them, we've been deluged with comments, many from seniors who feel equally menaced by fast-moving handlebars just inches from their elbows.
It might come as a surprise to cyclists – accustomed to the righteous role of victim in all violent encounters with traffic – that when a bike blows past a pedestrian from behind, so close the breeze from their passing can be felt, it is no less intimidating than their own close calls with bigger, faster vehicles.
The column generated 143 comments on The Fixer's webpage (www.thestar.com/thefixer), along with more than 40 emails and calls. Most agreed that a convergence of cyclists and pedestrians is uneasy at best, and sometimes a recipe for injuries and disaster.
The situation can only get worse as more people turn to bikes as a cheaper and environmentally friendly mode of travel – with the blessing of city hall, which encourages cycling as a way to reduce gridlock and greenhouse gas emissions from vehicles.
It doesn't help that the city has fallen behind in its plan to create bike lanes on city streets. Right now, there are 89 kilometres of bike lanes, including 12 kilometres added in 2008, when the original goal was to increase total bike lanes this year by 50 kilometres. The long-term plan is to create 1,000 kilometres of bike lanes and separate bike paths in the city – an oft-delayed goal now set for 2012.
The most startling email came from Patti McKenna, about two women walking with a group of friends, as they often do on Saturdays, who were "mowed down by an irate cyclist who screamed and yelled at them even after he knocked them over," in Étienne Brulé Park.
One was bruised and battered, while "the other suffered a broken jaw which had to be wired shut, stitches on her mouth and other injuries."
"He continued to yell at her in this state as she lay on the ground, bleeding and hurt," before fleeing, said McKenna, adding the women hiked four kilometres back to a parking lot while nursing their injuries.
Ralston Ayling, a retired Toronto police officer, emailed to say he had investigated an accident involving a cyclist who was "weaving in and out through pedestrians" on a Kingston Rd. sidewalk when he "ran over an elderly lady who had just stepped out of the doorway of a dry cleaner's. The victim suffered a broken hip and was hospitalized as a result."
The cyclist was charged with careless driving and went to trial, where Ayling said he "kept insisting the pedestrian was at fault," saying, `The old lady just stepped right out onto the sidewalk without looking.'"
Margaret Hoops wrote to say that "I have fortunately not been run over by a cyclist – yet," but she has noticed a marked increase in cyclists on the sidewalk.
"They are everywhere. They race down the Davisville hill at 30 km/h, dressed in Spandex and helmets. If you tell them to get on the road, they are likely to tell you to f--- off."
Many riders went to the heart of the issue, saying they cycle on the sidewalk because it's too scary on the road, even in a bike lane. Some said they approach people slowly and swing wide around them, detouring onto the boulevard or road when necessary, trying to share the sidewalk while respecting the primacy of pedestrians.
That's about the most courtesy you could expect, and the best way to prevent collisions between cyclists and people, but it's still a violation of a city bylaw prohibiting bikes with wheels larger than 61 centimetres (24 inches) from sidewalks, punishable by a $90 fine.
Since the bylaw is enforced only by police, who usually have bigger fish to fry, most cyclists are able to get away with riding on the sidewalk, said Toronto police Sgt. Tim Burrows. When a charge is laid, it often involves officers who patrol on bikes, or downtown beat cops who stop a bicycle courier for cutting it too close with pedestrians.
"When it comes to the downtown core, or congested areas, sidewalk riding is an absolute danger to pedestrians, even though the argument from the cyclist is that it's too dangerous for them on the road," said Burrows.
Suburban areas with wide, busy arterial roads and sidewalks with fewer pedestrians amount to a grey area in terms of enforcement, he said. While it's safer for cyclists to be on the sidewalk, it's still illegal, but police in those areas are usually in cars and not focusing on cyclists.
A total of 2,833 charges were laid by Toronto police against cyclists this year up to Oct. 8, but the data doesn't differentiate between offences, Burrows said. Many are for riding on the sidewalk, but he couldn't provide a precise number.
In 2007, a total of 2,038 cyclists were charged as of Oct. 8, while 1,073 were charged up to the same date in 2006, Burrows said, adding that in the past two years officers have been more proactive about citing offences by cyclists.
Police don't collect data on collisions between pedestrians and cyclists because there is no legal requirement for cyclists to carry identification, or for such accidents to be reported to police, he said.
The city bylaw is based on wheel size because it allows children on small bikes to learn to ride on the sidewalk, while recognizing it's difficult for police to enforce age-based bylaws because most children don't carry identification.
A new wrinkle was recently added to the mix when small electric scooters – not the kind used by disabled people, but two-wheeled models similar to the gas-powered Vespa – began to ply the streets.
A couple of emails from readers said they spotted people riding them on sidewalks, an observation we've twice made ourselves in the past two weeks, once on Kingston Rd., where a guy was firing along the sidewalk near Warden Ave., and more recently on Parliament St., where a woman was weaving through pedestrians.
The provincial transportation ministry has yet to decide if electric bikes should be licensed, like gas-powered scooters, and continues to study the issue, according to its website.
City Councillor Adrian Heaps (Ward 35, Scarborough Southwest), who chairs council's cycling advisory committee, said continuing to expand Toronto's growing network of bike lanes, along with educating cyclists on how to use them safely and confidently, will eventually steer some cyclists off sidewalks.
But short of a massive, city-sponsored public education program, teaching cyclists to use the bike lanes and stay off the sidewalks is a slow, long-term process, said Heaps.
Barbara Wentworth, a bicycle safety planner with the city, is also an instructor with Toronto's CAN-BIKE program, which teaches cyclists how to safely navigate streets without getting into an accident.
Course costs range up to $100 for a three-day program that offers advanced training on how to use the streets, said Wentworth. But the bigger challenge is teaching younger people to move from the sidewalk to the street.
"What we're taught as children is to stay on the sidewalk, as far away as possible from the cars," said Wentworth. "It's better for children learning to ride to be on the sidewalk, but it becomes a habit, and after that a lot of people don't even know they're not supposed to be there."
The courses teach cyclists to "safely and confidently use bike lanes and move in and out of the traffic so that you feel more comfortable and are not intimidated by it," she said.
"It all comes down to an issue of how drivers and cyclists use the space on the road," said Wentworth, noting that a "lack of civility" only adds to the problem.
It would help if a program was developed to teach school-age kids how to make a safe transition from sidewalks to roads, she said, noting that a city study a few years ago revealed that most of the cyclists involved in collisions with cars were teenagers. But there's no funding for such a program.
Dan Egan, who's in charge of the city's cycling initiatives, agreed that additional bike lanes should ease the problem.
"We want to create a safe space for cyclists on the roadway, and create the conditions for cyclists to feel comfortable in them," he said. "We get pressure all the time to let cyclists use the sidewalks, but it's really not the right approach."