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Into the Mist
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Finch West Line 6 LRT

Palma said:
Mammoliti is an idiot. He cannot actually believe Finch will get a subway. Even if it was a small, small, small possibility, with the Spadina extension over runs, who knows what the cost will be with Scarborough and then there is SmartTrack, there is no way the Executive will pass the motion. Its just the councillor wanting to get his name out there so that his ward thinks he is fighting for them.
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He doesn't believe a Finch subway will be built. He just wants to block progress on the LRT.
 
Mammoliti and Karygiannis are being obstructionist, plain and simple. When one cannot muster up a better argument for a piece of infrastructure than that it is "deserved", one's credibility should go straight out the window.

It's heartening to get re confirmation of Tory's support for FWLRT and SELRT. Throughout the campaign his stance on them was a little unclear...so long as Mammo and Kary G can be sidelined now, we should hopefully be closer to in the clear.
 
MrsNesbitt said:
Mammoliti and Karygiannis are being obstructionist, plain and simple. When one cannot muster up a better argument for a piece of infrastructure than that it is "deserved", one's credibility should go straight out the window.

It's heartening to get re confirmation of Tory's support for FWLRT and SELRT. Throughout the campaign his stance on them was a little unclear...so long as Mammo and Kary G can be sidelined now, we should hopefully be closer to in the clear.
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Tory made it known that he was going to let Finch and Sheppard move forward. His opponents were the ones muddying up his stance. The projects were not priorities to him, as he did state several times during the election, because they are being built by the Province. It allowed him to completely avoid Ford's LRT rhetoric during the election, and kept the focus on SmartTrack.

Going back to a post from August of last year:

robmausser said:
My friend is John Torys campaign manager, he does not want to cancel them. That is a misunderstanding and reappropriation of what he said by his opponents.
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At that point, certain candidates were saying anything they could possibly say to try and divert support away from Tory. It clearly worked, as many seem to be surprised that Tory isn't moving to stop Finch or Sheppard, and hasn't even brought up the idea of scrapping them to divert funding to SmartTrack once.
 
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TransitPolicyChanger said:
Depending on what you mean by "over budget" - if it is a result of design or performance issues then i would most likely agree - but if there are unforeseen conditions which effect the performance of the Contract then they will be fully entitled to extras. You can't write a contract which removes all your liability on issues which the P3 could have no way of knowing or budgeting for.
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plus the P3 contractor can cut and run, as happened to Transport for London
http://www.supplymanagement.com/new...fter-woeful-failure-of-ps350-million-contract
 
dowlingm said:
plus the P3 contractor can cut and run, as happened to Transport for London
http://www.supplymanagement.com/new...fter-woeful-failure-of-ps350-million-contract
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Best part about contract law in Canada (and much of the world) is you still get partial payment for partial work and the court gets to decide the value of the work.

They can do the easy bits, decide it's too hard/expensive to finish, take partial payment. The project may now both be delayed by years and someone else (who knows of the failed first attempt) may need to start over and will bid much higher.

The only real penalty is to prevent the private partner from tendering on future contracts. Of course, there are very few companies actually capable of handling a multi-billion dollar transit project in the first place so now you've effectively got a sole-source deal if you don't let them try again.


As we learned with St. Clair, helping smaller companies get experience to increase future competition is also a great way to kill the schedule. There is no single good answer, but since P3s allow for policy control beyond the elected term it's popular with politicians and bureaucrats who've seen the winds change far too many times.
 
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rbt said:
Best part about contract law in Canada (and much of the world) is you still get partial payment for partial work and the court gets to decide the value of the work.

They can do the easy bits, decide it's too hard/expensive to finish, take partial payment. The project may now both be delayed by years and someone else (who knows of the failed first attempt) may need to start over and will bid much higher.

The only real penalty is to prevent the private partner from tendering on future contracts. Of course, there are very few companies actually capable of handling a multi-billion dollar transit project in the first place so now you've effectively got a sole-source deal if you don't let them try again.


As we learned with St. Clair, helping smaller companies get experience to increase future competition is also a great way to kill the schedule. There is no single good answer, but since P3s allow for policy control beyond the elected term it's popular with politicians and bureaucrats who've seen the winds change far too many times.
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If there are not that many companies that can take on multi billion transit projects in the province, take bids from American companies. I know a hot potatoe but perhaps that will set these companies straight
 
The Finch LRT I think makes a good deal of sense. That's one LRT everyone should be able to agree on.
 
hoping that one day this thing connects to yonge and possibly continues east all the way into scarborough.
 
Palma said:
If there are not that many companies that can take on multi billion transit projects in the province, take bids from American companies. I know a hot potatoe but perhaps that will set these companies straight
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That already happened. Look at the Spadina Subway, the contract was parceled off and many non-Canadian companies won bids.

Walsh Construction (American) - Steeles West / Pioneer Village station
FCC & OHL (partners, both Spanish) - North Tunnels & Highway 407 station
AECON (Canadian), McNally (Canadian) & Kiewit (American) - South Tunnels
AECON (Canadian) - Sheppard West station
Ellisdon (Canadian) - York University Station
Bondfield (Canadian) - Finch West Station
Arup Canada (Canadian) - Vaughan station

If you look at the track record, the biggest problems were 1) the death at York University, which was under the GC umbrella of FCC-OHL (Spanish) and 2) the major delays at Steeles West Station, under the supervision of Walsh Construction (American), and 3) contractual dispute with Arup Canada (Canadian). So I fail to see how the problems lie solely with Canadian companies, and that infrastructure delays on Toronto transit projects are some sort of indictment of Canadian contractors.
 
sixrings said:
hoping that one day this thing connects to yonge and possibly continues east all the way into scarborough.
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The Big Move also calls for it to extend to the Airport. I hope that they start working on that and the Crosstown extension to the airport someday soon, that can shut down all these people complaining about the UPX price.
 
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