Finch West Line 6 LRT

[Steve X]

Does anyone know what the planned alignment for the future extension to Pearson is? I think the only thing I have seen is that Finch and Eglinton LRTs should connect (as per recent City Council vote, and The Big Move).

There isn't a real plan right now. Metrolinx has mention in their joint board meeting that the current alignment is designed so it can be extended southwards on Highway 27.

I would think it's important to have it go through the Woodbine/OLG slots and entertainment centre. If they were to expand it to a full casino, they need transit to bring people there. Ontario gets a benefit with this extension. The problem is the OLG slots are located pretty far away from Highway 27.

 

[nfitz]

There isn't a real plan right now. Metrolinx has mention in their joint board meeting that the current alignment is designed so it can be extended southwards on Highway 27.

There's similarly vague comments going right back to the day they announced Transit City, and also in the Finch West EA.

It's nothing new ...

 

[Steve X]

There's similarly vague comments going right back to the day they announced Transit City, and also in the Finch West EA.

It's nothing new ...

The only change is instead of swinging into Humber College, they put the line along Highway 27.

I think TTC was thinking of running through the Humber College campus diagonally SW and through the Woodbine racetrack. Either underground or along the perimeter till it reach Highway 427.

Clearly an alignment along Highway 27 and Dixon would be cheaper. There would also be a benefit to the commercial strip along Dixon. This also allows Eglinton to branch off with a spur along Highway 27 to meet up at Dixon with the other spur going to Renforth. The tracks can enter the airport on Jetliner and via a new elevated structure to meet up with the UPX/Link trains. This is a much better alignment than going down Silver Dart for 3km serving no real purpose. They really don't need 2 different ways to enter the airport. It drives up the cost with no benefit at all except if a LRV breaks down screwing up 1.5 lines (Eglinton still has the other spur). A shared Dixon alignment allows riders to transfer at Dixon/Highway 27 between the two lines instead of wasting 10 minutes in and out of the airport.

Finally to solve the OLG/Woodbine problem, the line can divert from Highway 27 onto Queen's Plate serving Woodbine Centre and then into OLG/racetrack. The line can use the south side of Rexdale to route back onto the side of Highway 27. What I'm proposing is quite feasible and rather low cost surface alignment. It doesn't make sense if only Eglinton is built cause two spurs have a higher trackage than one common link.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

The only change is instead of swinging into Humber College, they put the line along Highway 27.

I think TTC was thinking of running through the Humber College campus diagonally SW and through the Woodbine racetrack. Either underground or along the perimeter till it reach Highway 427.

The other barrier is the Humber Arboretum and the Humber River. Running the LRT diagonally would create potential environmental impacts to both, and likely set up significant permitting requirements. Why not avoid it altogether!

 

[W. K. Lis]

The other barrier is the Humber Arboretum and the Humber River. Running the LRT diagonally would create potential environmental impacts to both, and likely set up significant permitting requirements. Why not avoid it altogether!

So true. Less green space and trees to cut down.

They'll just tear up parking spaces at the Woodbine Centre and Woodbine Racetrack instead. Unless someone objects to ruining the asphalt that's there.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

They'll just tear up parking spaces at the Woodbine Centre and Woodbine Racetrack instead. Unless someone objects to ruining the asphalt that's there.

War on the car I tell ya!

 

[Steve X]

War on the car I tell ya!

It's war on asphalt. Woodbine Centre and the OLG/racetrack have more than enough parking space.

 

[johntauren]

There are a few problems with any alignment south from Humber College.
Any route will run into some but not all of these problems, depending on how the route goes

Humber River and Valley (to be crossed by any route)
RBC Bank right at the corner of Hwy 27 and Queen's Plate. (a few years old now)
Entrance to Woodbine Centre from Hwy 27 opposite Fortinos
Houses on north side of Queen's Plate.


There's plenty of room on the west side of Queen's Plate, or along Hwy 27 between Rexdale and the GO tracks but it's getting there that's the problem.

 

[Steve X]

There are a few problems with any alignment south from Humber College.
Any route will run into some but not all of these problems, depending on how the route goes

Humber River and Valley (to be crossed by any route)
RBC Bank right at the corner of Hwy 27 and Queen's Plate. (a few years old now)
Entrance to Woodbine Centre from Hwy 27 opposite Fortinos
Houses on north side of Queen's Plate.


There's plenty of room on the west side of Queen's Plate, or along Hwy 27 between Rexdale and the GO tracks but it's getting there that's the problem.

They'll need a new crossing over the Humber River, probably a bridge.
Considering the amount of traffic on Highway 27, the alignment should remain separated from traffic.
The RBC an move. No big deal. Housing on the other hand would cause more trouble. Don't know why you think it's a concern. Many businesses got taken out on Eglinton.

I don't see why this alignment would be that difficult to build. There are more problems with Crosstown West and the 27/401/427 jumbo interchange.

 

[Burnt creek]

Why must there always be so many stops in everyone of these plans? Cant planners and councilors be more considerate of transit user and their time? From a commuters standpoint its turns this kind of service into something akin to a bus service. Its seems very reasonable to have no more than a total number of stops equal to or less than the total kilometres on a line. Space the stations or stops approximately one kilometer apart.

Love the eglinton crosstown, and how the plan eveolved from its original inception. But the fact that there is 25 stops for a 19 km line is the one thing that still bugs me.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Why must there always be so many stops in everyone of these plans? Cant planners and councilors be more considerate of transit user and their time? From a commuters standpoint its turns this kind of service into something akin to a bus service. Its seems very reasonable to have no more than a total number of stops equal to or less than the total kilometres on a line. Space the stations or stops approximately one kilometer apart.

Love the eglinton crosstown, and how the plan eveolved from its original inception. But the fact that there is 25 stops for a 19 km line is the one thing that still bugs me.

LRT stops are selected based on a balance between good local access and high route speed. The greater the distance between stops, the higher the speed of travel. There were two general scenarios considered for stop separation for the Etobicoke-Finch West Transit City Corridor:

1. LRT stops every 800 - 1,000 metres like a ‘surface subway’, with stops at major intersections with parallel bus service (such as every 20 minutes) serving bus stops in between. At LRT stops, customers can transfer to the centre LRT platform from the side of road bus stop.

2. LRT stops more closely spaced, every 400-600 metres, with no parallel local bus service.

TTC developed a micro-simulation to examine the impacts of stop spacing on the example of the Sheppard East LRT. A stop spacing of 800 metres resulted in a route speed of 26-27 km/h, while a stop spacing of 400 metres had a route speed of 22-23 km/h. The wider spacing did not result in as much of a speed advantage as expected; while the LRT stopped less often, the time for customers to board took twice as long per stop (same number of passengers collected at half the stops) and the LRT still had delays due to red lights at signalized intersections in between stops (although the model accounted for possible signal priority to reduce such delays).

The wider spacing scenario was not selected because the full impact of the increased speed of the LRT applies only to those walking directly to LRT stops. Those boarding local buses running parallel to the LRT at bus stops in between LRT stops have a shorter walk, but a longer waiting time for service and a transfer to the LRT after a very short ride on a parallel bus route.

In recognition of these results, the recommendation for stop spacing for the Etobicoke-Finch West line is in the order of 400 to 600 metres, depending upon the pattern of development and the location of cross-streets, with an expected average speed of 22 to 23 km/h; this is considered to be the best balance between the overall route speed and good local access. The stop spacing may be greater at some locations for the Etobicoke-Finch West LRT due to terrain and undeveloped zones along the corridor, as well as the interchange and related roadways at Highway 400. For purposes of comparison, during peak operating conditions, the average speed of the Bloor-Danforth subway line is 30 km/h, the 36 Finch West bus service is 17 km/h, and the 510 Spadina streetcar service is 14 km/h.

http://thecrosstown.ca/sites/default/files/pdf/reports/Finch-EA/chapter_2.pdf

 

[Steve X]

Why must there always be so many stops in everyone of these plans? Cant planners and councilors be more considerate of transit user and their time? From a commuters standpoint its turns this kind of service into something akin to a bus service. Its seems very reasonable to have no more than a total number of stops equal to or less than the total kilometres on a line. Space the stations or stops approximately one kilometer apart.

Love the eglinton crosstown, and how the plan eveolved from its original inception. But the fact that there is 25 stops for a 19 km line is the one thing that still bugs me.

Cause TTC doesn't want to run a parallel bus service. The 2013 plan calls for the 36 will be eliminated completely and the 39/199 would be extended to Finch West Station when Finch West LRT opens. If the stops are over 1km apart, they'll have to keep the 36.

And the reason in the post directly above.

 

[Burnt creek]

Thanks. What your both basically saying and confirming is that is the critics of these projects have a point. Average speeds of 22-23, thats really slow. And, when you add stops at traffic lights, you have a very slow commute with many torcherous stops. Anyone who has every used a city bus, will tell you the most frustrating thing about buses is how slow they are at getting from point A to point B and that the frequent stops have an adverse psychological impact on you. That, and overcrowding is what sets you in bad frame of mind. Other than the overcrowing factor, this Finch line project will ultimately deliver the same kind of service as busses did.

This is why i have never believed that, at grade LRT or streetcar service will ever do anything to improve property values. Property values are higher near the subways lines because you can get downtown faster and get you to work or school faster.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Traffic priority to the city's transportation department (roads and traffic lights) is the number of vehicles, not the number of passengers. That's why we also see left turn signals giving single-occupant automobiles the priority on St. Clair and Spadina.

 

[BurlOak]

With wider spacing, bus service is likely not needed. Most of the passengers would board at the major intersections, which have stops anyways. A good number of the people from the midblock could walk to those intersections. For the few who can't, there is often perpendicular bus service that can be used that would likely taken then to a subway station of some sorts. On Finch, there is

2 buses between Keele and Jane
2 buses between Jane and Weston
1 buses between Weston and Islington
0 buses between Islington and Kipling (but that block is only 500m)
1 bus between Kipling and Martin Grove
1 bus between Martin Grove and 27.