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Family Sized Condos

Looks like my prediction is starting to come true. People priced out of the single family home market are now looking for 2 and 3 bedroom condos, at least according to this FinPost report:
http://business.financialpost.com/p...l-housing-eye-high-rise-units?__lsa=ef86-b997

<Part of the attraction for consumers could be prices, with the average index selling price for new condo apartments up only two per cent from a year ago to $582 per square foot. Toronto’s core had the strongest growth because of supply constraints, but prices there were up only four per cent from a year ago to $662 per square foot.

Growth in prices in the resale market for condominium apartments was even stronger, up 10 per cent from a year ago to $498 per square foot.>

<“I believe the affordability and inventory issues plagued by the low-rise market is pushing more demand over to condos. Buyers that would have otherwise bought a house in Toronto are opting for larger condos. And with not a lot of supply of these units in the resale market, new condos have seen rising demand, which is leading developers to shift strategies and include more two bedroom and three bedroom units,” (Shaun Hildebrand, senior vice-president at Urbanation) said.>

This leads me to believe that a lot of older buildings that went up in the 70s in the city of Toronto could see a big uptick in value as they are located, mostly anyway, in areas with transit, schools etc. That plus the unit sizes have gotta be bigger than anything being built today. The downside is, as larger suites in buildings that may be in need of repairs, the fees could be high. Still, I would keep my eye on this sector.
 
This is is one of the reasons why I bought a larger 2 bedroom condo. I figured those who could not afford the $1M houses would end up looking at larger condos.

Eventually paying $900K for a tiny house that needs work with no parking becomes unreasonable.
 
Which is what I have been saying for years. It's like Manhattan. Only the supremely wealthy can afford a brownstone -- and now maybe even an apartment. But nobody there blinks at the thought of raising children in some of those wonderful huge old flats. Ditto Paris, Rome, London, all the "world-class" cities.

We have a three bedroom apartment in an older very well-maintained building, with all the worthwhile amenities, in an amazing location. (If I told you where, I'd have to kill you.) Everybody thinks we're a rental. Even I thought so for years as I drove by it maybe a thousand times since coming to Toronto in '85. Now real estate agents have started with the solicitations, just like they do with the houses around us. The last unit that sold about three months ago, also a three-bedroom, went for an astonishing $80K over-asking bully offer that came in even before the Saturday open house closed. There have been no listings since.

I don't know what the landlord-tenant laws are here but, when I look at those north Cabbagetown/Jamestown towers, I see goldmine conversions. I don't know what they did in Regent Park and the West Donlands but, if they didn't build decent sized two and three bedroom units, they totally blew it. (Only problem with the West Donlands is the lack of schools.)
 
Ex-Montreal Girl said:
Which is what I have been saying for years. It's like Manhattan. Only the supremely wealthy can afford a brownstone -- and now maybe even an apartment. But nobody there blinks at the thought of raising children in some of those wonderful huge old flats. Ditto Paris, Rome, London, all the "world-class" cities.

We have a three bedroom apartment in an older very well-maintained building, with all the worthwhile amenities, in an amazing location. (If I told you where, I'd have to kill you.) Everybody thinks we're a rental. Even I thought so for years as I drove by it maybe a thousand times since coming to Toronto in '85. Now real estate agents have started with the solicitations, just like they do with the houses around us. The last unit that sold about three months ago, also a three-bedroom, went for an astonishing $80K over-asking bully offer that came in even before the Saturday open house closed. There have been no listings since.

I don't know what the landlord-tenant laws are here but, when I look at those north Cabbagetown/Jamestown towers, I see goldmine conversions. I don't know what they did in Regent Park and the West Donlands but, if they didn't build decent sized two and three bedroom units, they totally blew it. (Only problem with the West Donlands is the lack of schools.)
Click to expand...

I grew up in an apartment for the first 15 years of my life. One of the condos was a 3 bedroom with 2 baths. It was huge. We eventually moved to a house. While a house was nice, as a kid I had to do more work. The condo was great because I had other friends that lived in the same complex. We used all of the amenities. Moved to a house, there went the amenities. I probably enjoyed the condo more....but my mom would pick the house since the value quadrupled. A kid can be raised in a condo, no problem. People will have no choice now given how expensive a house is....everywhere.
 
What I don't really like seeing now though, are 700ish square feet condo's configured as 2 bedrooms. It just feels too small. But once yet into the 900 or 1,000+ sq ft, the price just gets pretty expensive. :(
 
tripwire said:
What I don't really like seeing now though, are 700ish square feet condo's configured as 2 bedrooms. It just feels too small. But once yet into the 900 or 1,000+ sq ft, the price just gets pretty expensive. :(
Click to expand...

This is why I think older buildings in established areas will do well. Right now, many of them may seem unattractive to young buyers because they're not all glass, double sink spa bathrooms (waste of space), open mini kitchens and pot lights. I'm thinking Don Mills and even High Park areas for example. Lots of older condos there. But, per square foot, they are relatively CHEAP, can be renovated and can be slowly taken over by more responsible and engaged ownership.

It's not unlike what happened to many inner city areas. Riverdale and Leslieville were pretty trashy in the late 70s and early 80s. Then Riverrdale started shooting up and, later, Leslieville. If somebody told me that Leslieville homes would be going for $1M plus, I'd have died laughing.

Just a theory anyway.
 
We bought in 2009 -- almost 1500 sq ft. 2+1. Any time we go looking at new condos that advertise 2+1, it's lucky if it's 800 square feet. Completely ridiculous. I've seen 3 bedrooms that size -- you can't even get a queen sized bed in some of the bedrooms.

My daughter recently bought in an older building, 2 bedrooms in about 1000 sq ft. Her 20 something friends all comment how roomy and homelike it is, compared to the shiny boxes of today. She has to do some renos but the building is in great shape and they paid a good price for it compared to something the same size in a newer building.
 
PinkLucy said:
We bought in 2009 -- almost 1500 sq ft. 2+1. Any time we go looking at new condos that advertise 2+1, it's lucky if it's 800 square feet. Completely ridiculous. I've seen 3 bedrooms that size -- you can't even get a queen sized bed in some of the bedrooms.

My daughter recently bought in an older building, 2 bedrooms in about 1000 sq ft. Her 20 something friends all comment how roomy and homelike it is, compared to the shiny boxes of today. She has to do some renos but the building is in great shape and they paid a good price for it compared to something the same size in a newer building.
Click to expand...

Sounds like she bought in our building. Our 2-BRs are about 1000 sf. -- plus large balcony, big parking spot (cars were bigger back then) and storage locker. Our 3-BR about 1200 sf. All our downsizing Beaches and Riverdale friends are now waiting to get units to move in.

Many people here have king beds in their bedrooms. We do -- plus a large-sized night table on either side, a full-sized dresser with mirror, two armchairs, small 3-pc ensuite, walk-in closet and room to spare. When we were looking for a place, we checked out a relatively pricey 2-BR plus (ha-ha) "den" in a new build and, when I saw the bedrooms, I burst out laughing. They were barely larger than the "spa bathrooms." The agent tried to convince us that a king was possible ... until I whipped out my trusty tape measure.
 
greenleaf said:
City planning report: Growing Up: Planning for Children in New Vertical Communities - Study Update

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2016.PG16.5
Click to expand...

As those following this thread have noticed, I have been banging this drum for a long long time. And, for the record, I am not doing a "told ya so" but expressing regret that greed and bad planning dominated development of our downtown, resulting in what I consider to be congested, dangerous (what if the power keeps failing like it does in Cityplace). and badly-built towers.

I note that recent condo sales have jumped higher among somewhat larger units. Some of that may be young families who can't afford to pay a million to live in established central communities with good schools and some may be downsizers from those communities who don't want to downsize from 2,000 sf to 600 sf. The bottom line is, there is demand but little supply.

Although I am not sure that 800 sf with kids is a good idea -- especially if you have a ton of toys, car seats, strollers and whatnot -- it sure beats most else on the market.

As for downsizers, I have friends who sold their Leslieville home and bought an 800 sf condo is a somewhat "older" -- funny what is considered older in Toronto -- condo in the Market area. Now their daughter and son-in-law are expecting and they will be visiting from the West Coast for holidays etc. with a baby in tow. My gf is frantically looking for 1000 sf so she can have her children with her for a week or more at a time and not go out of her mind.

Developers should have seen this coming.

In our case, we have seen the value of the condo we bought in 2012 jump by 47% (based on recent sales.) Any unit that goes on the market is sold within the week -- and sometimes during or even before the initial open house with bully offers. It's crazy. But don't get the idea that we have a high turnover. Almost all sales are by original owners who are ailing and in need of care -- or beyond that. In some case, their adult children (with their kids) move in. Condos are happily inherited.

It's because we have a unique product in Toronto, walking/biking distance to downtown, excellent transit, access to established parks and schools with good reputations, 24/7 shopping and dining etc. People in the building say we are sitting on a gold mine but we ain't getting off it any time soon.
 
This does not surprise me. A big chunk of the market now are "kids" who grew up in Riverdale, the Beach, the Annex. Now they are spawning kids of their own. They sure as hell aren't coveting 2500 square feet at the end of bumper-to-bumper traffic to Hooterville. They're used to getting on the subway or streetcars, walking to Starbucks or their schools, and they probably resented the very small amount of shoveling and raking they were required to do on their postage stamp sized driveways (assuming they had any) on the weekends. Why would they want to start now? My guess is, if they can't afford a house south of Eglinton, they're in the market for a decent sized condo.

As for those kids who grew up in the burbs, many of them have moved to downtown condos -- and there's no going back to their parents' lifestyle.
 
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