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Family Sized Condos
- Thread starter dt_toronto_geek
- Start date
Ex-Montreal Girl
Active Member
Seems that the issue of family-sized condos is now in several differnt threads but I came back to this one.
Found this Vancouver story via Condo Madness' website.
Here's a snip:
Found this Vancouver story via Condo Madness' website.
Here's a snip:
greenleaf
Senior Member
ICYMI: 5 kids, 2 adults, 1000 sq ft - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life...ate/5-kids2-adults1000-sq-ft/article23875496/
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should 
James
Senior Member
Considering they only have the kids every other week, it's not a typical living situation so one can't expect this particular case to be an example to follow for most families. The Dad also works from home, affording him time to drive their kids to North Vancouver for school since the school downtown is overcapacity. The kids are also under 8 years old but once they hit their teens, it's really going to be more challenging. I'm not sure how feasible, from a financial and availability standpoint, a >1,000 sqft Vancouver condo will be but I do hope it all works out for them!
All that said, I do want to see more family-sized condos in downtown Toronto. Of course, with the larger footprint comes larger price tags so there's a difficult balance that needs to be met in order for it to happen.
All that said, I do want to see more family-sized condos in downtown Toronto. Of course, with the larger footprint comes larger price tags so there's a difficult balance that needs to be met in order for it to happen.
ksun
Senior Member
How the hell can that happen? Downtown condos are $650/sf nowadays, and charges a condo fee of 0.65-0.8/sf. A 1200sf family sized condo will be $800k with $800-1000 of condos fees every month. With that amount of costs, I am sure most families would opt for a small house a bit further away from downtown, with zero fixed condo fees completely out of their control? Toronto is expensive, but $800k with the monthly fee can buy a lot of houses.
You know what, to even make this family sized condos possible, developers first have to cut down the amenities and condo fees drastically. Who the hell is willing to pay $800-1000 for facilities that they rarely use? My 18 year old downtown condo is still charging less than $0.5/sf, and that's how condos should be built.
Ex-Montreal Girl
Active Member
You assume that "a small house a bit further from downtown" will be available at a reasonable cost, without bidding wars and without the need for a total reno. Right now, that's a huge assumption. A "bit further" is a LOT further. Also, people have to factor in the cost of transportation, i.e. two cars. That is some fixed cost. Then there is all the work related to owning and maintaining a house. The other thing is, many people are very picky about schools. They want to be where the good ones are.
I don't believe that amenities are what really drive up the cost of new condos. I think it's the competition for supplies, skilled workers, contractors, etc. plus pure greed on the part of developers. Most are building like mad downtown chasing the singles/couples/rentals/investors market where land costs are high. If they looked around to less expensive locations, near schools and transit, maybe costs would be much lower...although the competition for workers etc. would remain.
My prediction is that, eventually, they'll get stuck, unable to offload their inventory of little glass boxes, the construction boom will cool off as will demand for workers and materials and everybody will start thinking differently. Meanwhile, larger condos (probably 20+ years old) will see prices take off.
That's my story and I am sticking to it.
beemicha
New Member
Yeh especially out the city you will get a really nice home if you're willing to commute
Think that's the way most young familys are going...
James
Senior Member
^ But at what point (distance/time) will it be out of balance and the families start to consider moving a step back (i.e. closer to the core) and sacrificing space to reduce distance or time?
DarnDirtyApe
Active Member
I'm with ksun on this one. For $800K you can still buy a renovated small house (say 1200 square foot plus basement) along the Bloor-Danforth subway or a streetcar line in a decent school district. Maybe the economics will change if house prices continue to become more expensive relative to condo prices, but for now it doesn't make sense to buy a large (3 bedroom) condo for family use.
Condo prices are constrained by the fact that new supply is theoretically unlimited at the cost of construction + financing. On the other hand, land is a finite resource.
Condo prices are constrained by the fact that new supply is theoretically unlimited at the cost of construction + financing. On the other hand, land is a finite resource.
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NorthYorkEd
Active Member
I would agree, but the prices might be constrained by the often massive condo fees associated with older and larger units. When you tack on an extra $800-$1200 per month in fixed monthly fees, especially if prices soar, larger units might lose their shine with buyers. Sellers might have to stabilize or even lower their prices to stay competitive in the marketplace just to offset the often exorbitant fees.
Ex-Montreal Girl
Active Member
Before we made the leap into a larger, older condo, we parsed the costs, comparing them with the expense and maintenance of an older house in Riverdale.
Some things, of course, can't be measured. Not having to worry about the raking, shoveling, leaking roof, wet foundation etc. Somebody takes care of all that for you. I would rather spend my Saturdays socializing or something other than running to Home Depot. I laugh at all the leaf bags lined up at curbs right now. If I were a younger parent, I'd rather spend my time with them doing something cultural or educational than driving them here or there for play dates or hanging at malls or whatever so that I can climb up a ladder and clean out the eaves in peace. You don't have to wait for the furnace man, ever. And I don't have to pay for gym membership. Because we have a concierge, I never have to go to the post office to pick up my packages which, in this day of online shopping, come very frequently.
Time is money. Plus there's the added benefit of, in our building anyway, a real community with social events.
One mistake many people make in calculating the cost difference between house and condo-owning is that people rarely account for the non-regular overhead. For example, it was easy to figure the cost of heat, hydro, water, and cable -- all of which are covered by our monthly maintenance -- and compare. But then there were the other costs, the window washing (we had three floors), those eaves, the billions of dollars (LOL) we poured into the garden, repairing or replacing the decks, the fences, the retaining wall and the garage roof and door. The termite inspections. The insane city jack up of our front pad parking permit, from $8/year in 1993 to $200+ in 2013. Calling in PCO to get rid of the wasp nests. Calling in the humane removal guys to get rid of the squirrels. There was always something.
The other day we had to drive out to Burlington for a family function. It was Saturday afternoon. Two hours -- no joke -- in bumper-to-bumper traffic all the way to Mississauga Rd. How much gas did we waste? How much pollution did we spew? How much did we contribute to climate change? And the stress levels? Through the roof!
Oh and we only have one car, which we hardly ever use. Mostly we take the TTC or cabs ... or we walk.
It's not always just about $$$.
I bet if you talked to a lot of the young families who have moved out to the burbs, especially those who either grew up in central Toronto or spent part of their young adulthood there in downtown condos, they will tell you how much they hate the WalMart lifestyle.
What she said ^^^
I do know some young families (anecdotal evidence of course) who moved out of condos to the suburbs and want to be back in the city, in a condo, because they miss the lifestyle.
I'm in a fairly large unit and yes, the monthly fees seem high, but it still works out less than the combined costs of my large house (hydro is WAY cheaper), I've also been able to reduce from two cars to one, don't have to set aside money to fix the roof and so on and so forth. I don't miss the yard work at all. The best part is when I travel, which I do frequently. I lock the door and head out.
It's about lifestyle as much as about money, and it's a choice that people make, one way or the other. Are there things I miss about having a house? Absolutely. But weighing the pros and cons, for this time in my life, the condo works for me both financially and for my lifestyle.
I do know some young families (anecdotal evidence of course) who moved out of condos to the suburbs and want to be back in the city, in a condo, because they miss the lifestyle.
I'm in a fairly large unit and yes, the monthly fees seem high, but it still works out less than the combined costs of my large house (hydro is WAY cheaper), I've also been able to reduce from two cars to one, don't have to set aside money to fix the roof and so on and so forth. I don't miss the yard work at all. The best part is when I travel, which I do frequently. I lock the door and head out.
It's about lifestyle as much as about money, and it's a choice that people make, one way or the other. Are there things I miss about having a house? Absolutely. But weighing the pros and cons, for this time in my life, the condo works for me both financially and for my lifestyle.
Benito
Senior Member
^^^^ I agree with both of the women above.
I have had houses for twenty years, more than twenty in fact. For all the same reasons I think that living in a condo is a much better overall experience for us now than living in a house. We no longer have unexpected expenses like a roof that needs to be replaced on a fifteen year old house or the expense of replacing the furnace and soon the AC compressor. Those same headaches of raking, shoveling and hours upon hours of yard work each week have been replaced by hours to pursue other more enjoyable endeavors.
For us and our largish unit with relatively high monthly condo fees it probably costs us a bit more per month than it used to owning a detached house in the Beaches, but it is worth the slight increase in monthly costs to have the improved quality of life with more free time. That doesn't even take into account that we now both walk to work and no longer have to put up with the TTC from the Beaches or the car or the Vespaa to get to work.
I have had houses for twenty years, more than twenty in fact. For all the same reasons I think that living in a condo is a much better overall experience for us now than living in a house. We no longer have unexpected expenses like a roof that needs to be replaced on a fifteen year old house or the expense of replacing the furnace and soon the AC compressor. Those same headaches of raking, shoveling and hours upon hours of yard work each week have been replaced by hours to pursue other more enjoyable endeavors.
For us and our largish unit with relatively high monthly condo fees it probably costs us a bit more per month than it used to owning a detached house in the Beaches, but it is worth the slight increase in monthly costs to have the improved quality of life with more free time. That doesn't even take into account that we now both walk to work and no longer have to put up with the TTC from the Beaches or the car or the Vespaa to get to work.
Ex-Montreal Girl
Active Member
^^^^ I agree with both of the women above.
How do you know we're women, hmm?
In 2012 when we moved, I calculated that it was costing approximately $100 more per month for the condo. But that paid for security/concierge. indoor parking for us and our guests, a pool, a decent gym, a party room, and other amenities. I'm not even counting bike storage or a workshop since we had that at home in the garage. Then there is the free time to enjoy the amenities!
But it's true. It's a lifestyle. If you're young and handy and can climb ladders to fix your ice-blocked or leaf-choked eaves, if you like gardening (I don't!), if you're willing to risk the wrath of your neighbours because you can't afford to repaint your verandah (or whatever), then you can easily live in a house for less.
We now have half a dozen young families in our building and it's great to see them all head out on bikes down the ravines on weekends rather than running themselves ragged going to some big box mall to get their groceries and other supplies on weekends. We have a top supermarket 24/7 literally a 3 minute walk away. We call it our "pantry."