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F-35 Fighter Jet Purchase

The only challenge with the Gripen is the lack of any stealth. Not that the tinpot dictators the RCAF has historically bombed post-Cold War had latest gen aircraft, but since we'll likely operate the next until 2040 and beyond, we'd best prepare to counter some modern kit.
Stealth is rather meaningless, contrary to all the hype. Even if it is effective, stealth is only needed for an attack role, not defensive. Gripen comes with advanced forms of electronic countermeasure systems.

Saab and Boeing are partners only on some projects, this being one. For others, they directly compete. Saab also partners with BAe, Dassault and others.

http://www.defenseone.com/business/...rnational-help-build-new-training-jet/131510/
 
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Once again. Clueless info from people who haven't served. Boggles my mind that people who have never gotten within 10 feet of a fighter jet think they know more than those of us who have actually spent decades in the air force.

I am sincerely hoping the issues in the Boeing-Bombardier spat force a competition. The F-35 has won every single contest its been in. The Super Hornet has lost every single competition it's been in.

Those who say stealth is a gimmick have no idea how radar works let alone discuss how stealth works mathematically or discuss a radar range equation and the tactical implications of stealth implicit from the math. It's particularly disappointing to see the stupidity in these forums. You'd think people who insist that most transit should be done by planners would see the logic in letting those of us in uniform procure platforms we need for our jobs.
 
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Beez.

Comparing airplanes with wikipedia and youtube is patently pointless. You never just buy an airplane. You buy a capability. You have to buy missiles, targeting pods, bomb racks, spare parts, ground servicing kit, etc. Contracts aren't just about purchasing stuff either. A fighter fleet is a national security asset. And maintaining that means considering the ability to service that fleet for next 30 years. That's the biggest gripe the air force has with all the alternatives. All of them will be out of service by 2040 and the government is asking the air force to buy something that will last till 2050 as a minimum, with 2060 as the target goal. If we buy Gripens, Rafales or worse (Super Hornets), we'll be the only customer still flying them in 2040 and left holding the bag for the entire supply chain. Supply costs will shoot up astronomically, which in turn will see cuts to YFR (yearly flying rates....measure of combat readiness).

So we either buy the F-35 and keep it for 30-40 years. Or we buy something else and plan to replace it in 20 years when its completely obsolete and support costs are accelerating. Speaking of obsolescence, the F-35 is the only aircraft built from scratch with oversized generators onboard to allow stuff like this:

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...ptors-f-35-stealth-fighters-armed-super-18729

People have no clue what a change in tech the F-35 is. Focusing on wikipedia stats is like saying you know all about the Eiffel Tower because you read about it on Wiki. The tech change in the F-35 is akin to moving to an iPhone from a Moto Razr. That's about the closest analogy I can come up with. All the bad news that came out early was just routine Test and Eval. Learning how to fly and max the airplane out. Now that the pilots are actually learning how to use the F-35s strength, they can pull off stuff like this:

https://theaviationist.com/2017/02/...nce-with-a-201-kill-ratio-u-s-air-force-says/

I shudder to think that our politicians want to send our guys and gals up in 20 years against Russian and Chinese fifth gen jets which will be proliferating around the world. Our boys and girls will on the other side of that kill ratio if that happens.
 
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Every live fire mission the CF-18s have done is attack.

I never understand people talking about attack or defend in the general context. Running defensive counter air (DCA) missions is just as challenging with a highly skilled enemy as offensive counter air (OCA) or Combat Air Patrols. All depends on the mission and the threat. I wouldn't want to put up a Gripen or a Rafale on Defensive Counter Air over Latvia against the Russians in 15 years when they have their own 5th gen jets.
 
I shudder to think that our politicians want to send our guys and gals up in 20 years against Russian and Chinese fifth gen jets which will be proliferating around the world. Our boys and girls will on the other side of that kill ratio if that happens.
Its not our politicians, its this crop of ignorant, ill-informed and extremist Liberals.
Remember, the F-35 was started by the Martin government and followed by the Harper government. It seemed the process was agreeable to all until Trudeau came along. He made a careless/reckless campaign promise (several other ones too) and now ignores all facts that go against his decision.
 
I see some would have people believe the JSF is capable of air superiority. And that's wonderful news then, since the USAF won't have to use Raptors to cover the JSF. Think of all the money saved! Just like that...

Meantime, from The Australian, Rupert Murdoch's flagship, and very right of centre:
  • The Australian
  • 7:48AM June 1, 2017
  • Robert Gottliebsen
    Business columnist
    Melbourne
    @BGottliebsen
    c9b09d6890dbb26000f687d16d18fec8
One of the world top independent defence experts has conduced an incredibly exhaustive examination of the real cost of the Joint Strike Fighter (F-35) to those countries that are buying it.

The expert, Paris-based Giovanni de Briganti, of Defence-Aerospace, estimates that the average unit cost of Lockheed Martin JSF in the ninth low-rate initial production run is $US206.3 million.

The Australian parliament has been told by Defence Minister Marise Payne and Defence Industry Minister Christopher Pyne that the cost of our Joint Strike Fighters will be in the vicinity of $US90 million.

Such a huge variation means that either Giovanni de Briganti has completely got his calculations wrong when applied to Australia, or Pyne and Payne may have misled parliament.

I do not have the ability to decide which of the alternatives are correct but there is a good chance that the Pyne/Payne $90 million vicinity estimate leaves out essential costs.

Giovanni de Briganti believes the aircraft’s engine is one of the costs they leave out.

Let me explain what I think has happened.

Defence officials for over a decade have been hoodwinking politicians on both sides by conveniently leaving out the massive expenditures required to get the JSF aircraft into service. At least in the past that has included leaving out the cost of the engine.

De Briganti believes the low cost estimate covers only a partially-completed aircraft about to leave the factory and not one that is ready for action, which is the only true cost. Pyne and Payne may have fallen into the trap.

The parliament needs to get to the bottom in the real cost of the JSF.

De Briganti emphasises that his $US206.3 million cost includes “engines, fixes and upgrades” — as any proper cost calculation would include.

A series of US defence officials have claimed that the cost of the JSF has been reduced thanks to the intervention of President Donald Trump. De Briganti disputes whether there has been a significant fall, so Trump may also have been hoodwinked.

There are three different JSF aircraft, which each have slightly different cost structures.

De Briganti calculates a “generic” F-35, which a notional aircraft used to compare unit costs from year to year. It is calculated on the basis of the average cost of one aircraft in each of the three versions (F-35A, F-35B and F-35C) in the same production lot.

He says that a direct comparison of the aircraft costs released by the F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO) shows that the cost of a “generic” F-35 has actually increased by $US7.63 million over the five years, 2012 to 2017.

According to de Briganti, JPO’s figures show that, of the three variants, only the F-35A saw its cost decline — a modest $3 million over those five years. Australia is buying the F-35A so at least the claim that we have had a cost reduction may be justifiable.

However de Briganti is adamant that the official Joint Strike Fighter costs produced by JPO only compare airframe costs, and for reasons it has not explained exclude engine and other costs.

If de Briganti is right then clearly the Australian parliament has been quoted costs for the JSF without the engine.

If he is right, words fail me.

De Briganti says his detailed analysis and indeed the JPO’s own figures contradict many public statements by Lockheed Martin and the F-35 Joint Program Office claiming that unit costs are dropping with each successive production lot.

In December, JPO Director Lt Gen Christopher Bogdan claimed that by the time the plane enters full rate production in 2019 the price will be down to $US80-$US85 million for an F-35A, $US110 million for a F-35B, and $US96 million for an F-35C.

These figures are the ones Pyne and Payne use.

Unfortunately, according to de Briganti, “Lot 9” aircraft being delivered today actually cost $US206 million, on average, including their engines, fixes, retrofits and upgrades, Not (repeat NOT) anything like $US85 million.

Furthermore, de Briganti says the JPO continues to award contracts for “Lot 9”, so it is likely the unit cost of “Lot 9” aircraft will continue to grow.

Pyne and Payne might say we are parroting what the Americans tell us.

That’s not good enough.

Our parliament and the public deserves the full facts.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...r/news-story/84959f679258706536efcfcb25439614

Damned facts....ruin many a good rant.
 
Took off filter to see Steve's "facts". Newspaper editorial by non-pilot. I means it's not like a Paris based defence analyst has an agenda or something (cough Rafale cough).

Steve's "facts" against my 17 years in the Air Force with several flying trainers and light jets, and a 20:1 kill ratio at Red Flag for the F-35 (the most credible training exercise in NATO). You guys decide who is more credible. Forum commenter with Google or air force officer with flying experience.

The RAAF (Aussies) have told their government that they think the Super Hornet can't defend itself past 2030-2035. The Super Hornet will be relegated to buddy tanking, electronic warfare and ground attack in lightly defended airspace. Their government is buying 100 F-35s on top of the Super Hornets. Those F-35s will be their primary air defence fighter.

By the way, the leading F-35 critic is a group called Air Power Australia. And their central thesis? Australia shouldn't get F-35s. It should get F-22s! A more expensive airplane that the Americans are prohibited from selling by law. You'll see lots of F-35 critics citing them without realizing how flawed APA's fundamental thesis is. APA thinks anything less than an F-22 is junk. So it's odd to see people citing them in support of Rafales, Gripens and the rest. They think those are worse junk than the Super Hornet. About the only point those of us serving agree with APA on.

The Super Hornet has a fantastic radar. I'll give it that. I'd take that over any other jets but the Eurofighter, if the F-35 can't be had. That saif, the Super Hornet will be obsolete in 15 years. And we'll have to hide behind NATO F-35 fighter screens while doing missions.
 
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Its not our politicians, its this crop of ignorant, ill-informed and extremist Liberals.
Remember, the F-35 was started by the Martin government and followed by the Harper government. It seemed the process was agreeable to all until Trudeau came along. He made a careless/reckless campaign promise (several other ones too) and now ignores all facts that go against his decision.
And I can't fathom out why this campaign promise is so important to the gov't....it's not like they have kept, or even plan to keep, all the others......from the little I read and understand and (full respect to kEiThZ) it really is very little...keeping this promise to not buy the F-35 in and of itself breaks another promise....the one about making fact based decisions the norm.
 
Its not our politicians, its this crop of ignorant, ill-informed and extremist Liberals.
Remember, the F-35 was started by the Martin government and followed by the Harper government. It seemed the process was agreeable to all until Trudeau came along. He made a careless/reckless campaign promise (several other ones too) and now ignores all facts that go against his decision.

And I can't fathom out why this campaign promise is so important to the gov't....it's not like they have kept, or even plan to keep, all the others......from the little I read and understand and (full respect to kEiThZ) it really is very little...keeping this promise to not buy the F-35 in and of itself breaks another promise....the one about making fact based decisions the norm.

Here's the thing. You guys will be surprised. But I voted Liberal. Change was important. And I actually thought the Liberals were going to have a competition. So I wasn't worried that the F-35 would come through.

Instead, the Liberals invented this whole capability gap nonsense, which even the RCAF Commander was unaware of. Then used that lie to insist on buying only 18 jets. We all know that's a ruse, so they can give the Super Hornet commonality points when they hold the contest later. This shambolic process is why they had to make 235 procurement staff and military officers sign that NDA, when the National Defence Acts, Security of Information Act and QR&Os already cover official secrets.

Most telling, is that they won't even let the air force buy all 18 jets as twin seat like the Aussies did. The Aussies bought the Super Hornet as all twin seats pre-wired for electronic warfare. It allowed them to use the Super Hornets as a front-line fighter for a decade and then transition to other roles as the F-35 came on line.

Now, in Canada, we can't afford two fighter fleets. So we'd prefer an all F-35 fleet. But failing that, two small fleets would have been a better outcome. The Aussie solution. Get Super Hornets that can be transitioned.


Also, a word on process. You'll find very little political dissension in Australia on the F-35 purchase. Or other major defence expenditure. Australia is getting a light carrier/amphibious assault ship. And they have a population of Ontario and Quebec combined. Part of the reason they do well, is because procurement is approved by an all-party committee. Nobody gets to play politics with it after the fact. It's a process they've developed because they are a small developed country in a very rough neighbourhood, with their allies very, very far away. They take their defence seriously. We could learn from their process at a minimum.

As for why this promise is so important? The military is an easy whipping boy. You can use the military to deliver a campaign promise even if it's terrible in the long run, and let's face it, most Canadians won't care. And at the end of the day, we'll operate what we've given and we'll do the jobs we're told. The Army went to Afghanistan in olive green uniforms on essentially dune buggies. That poor equipment cost lives. The public didn't care. So why should the politicians?
 
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I will say this though. Boeing must have some fantastic lobbyists in Ottawa. I want to party with those guys. They found a way to ditch half of NATO on the F-35, give them a sole-source contract, all while trying to lock the anchor aerospace firm of Canada, out of the American market. Those guys must have infinite bar tabs!
 
I means it's not like a Paris based defence analyst has an agenda or something (cough Rafale cough).
Keep it up...you elucidate the situation far more than you could ever realize.
Congress tells Pentagon’s F-35 office to start talking
By Alex Daugherty
May 04, 2017 5:00 PM

WASHINGTON
Lawmakers on Capitol Hill scolded the Pentagon office that is assigned to work with Lockheed Martin on negotiating a price for the F-35 fighter jet, the nation’s most expensive defense program.

Inside a 372-page document on the impact of the 2017 budget on defense spending sits two pages dedicated to the F-35 fighter jet, assembled in Fort Worth, Texas, by Lockheed.

The document criticizes the Pentagon office tasked with running the F-35 program for failing to properly communicate with Congress.

“Throughout the fiscal year 2017 budget review process, the Joint Strike Fighter Joint Program Office provided insufficient justification and incomplete information in an untimely manner,” the document states. “It is imperative that requested information is received promptly for proper congressional oversight of this major defense acquisition program.”

The document is part of a temporary spending bill that lasts through Sept. 30 and received the blessing of both parties after weeks of negotiations. It includes an $15 billion increase in defense spending, although not as much as President Donald Trump wanted. The spending bill is expected to be signed by Trump before midnight on Friday, avoiding a government shutdown.

“They need to be transparent, don’t they?” said Rep. Roger Williams, an Austin, Texas, Republican. “We need to have better communications, we need to demand that they watch expenses. This is taxpayer money they are spending. There should be no surprises in Congress based on what the Pentagon has done.”

Congress says in the report that the Pentagon failed to contract the number of F-35 that it asked for in the 2015 and 2016 budget bills, which resulted in “impeding production efficiencies.”

“Four F-35s included in the Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2015 and 13 F-35s included in the Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2016 were not part of their respective low rate initial production (LRIP) contracts due to the ... contracting strategy,” the document reads.

Richard Aboulafia, a military aircraft analyst with Teal Group, a Northern Virginia based aeronautics analysis firm, said the difference between the number of F-35’s appropriated by Congress and ultimately built by Lockheed could be due to production bottlenecks on the Fort Worth assembly line or among Lockheed’s myriad subcontractors.

“This is clearly not a problem that can be solved by throwing cash at it,” Aboulafia said. “It might be that planes need to be modified and reworked, and trying to get the learning curve with three different planes is difficult. Production is happening at a much lower rate than we hoped for.”

Part of the difference between Congress’ desires for the F-35 and what is ultimately agreed to between the Pentagon and Lockheed is the complexities of the F-35C, the variant of the jet designed to take off and land on aircraft carriers. The F-35C has experienced issues with excessive shaking during take off and inadequate wing strength in recent months, and those problems need to be corrected before full production ramps up.

“It’s very telling that the Joint Program Office is not providing information Congress is asking for at this time in particular, when the program office is really working to secure a significant increase in production,” said Dan Grazier, a fellow at The Project for Government Oversight, a government watchdog group that opposes the F-35. “The program is supposed to shift into test and operation period, so this is a very concerning ... development.”

Defense Secretary Gen. James Mattis ordered a review of the F-35C in January after Trump complained that the F-35 program was too expensive. The review compares the F-35C with the F-18 Super Hornet, a plane built by Lockheed competitor Boeing. The review is still ongoing.

The Pentagon did not return a request for comment. Lockheed Martin declined to comment.

While Congress provides oversight for the F-35 program and allocates money to the Pentagon, it does not have the ability to negotiate with Lockheed on a price for the jets, which recently fell below $100 million per jet for the conventional take off and landing model.

But critics of the program, including Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., are worried that long-term costs of the F-35 program will continue to increase even as the price per plane goes down. The Government Accountability Office released a report in April saying that F-35 testing delays could cost taxpayers and additional $1 billion

“I have been recently informed the F-35’s system development and demonstration phase has been delayed another seven months, another costly stumble that will cost the American taxpayer at least $500 million,” McCain said in a statement. “This is yet another troubling sign for a program that has already nearly doubled in cost, taken nearly two decades to field, and has long been the poster child for acquisition malpractice.”

The F-35 is scheduled to begin full rate production in April 2019 and the testing delays put that date in jeopardy.

But Aboulafia said there isn’t much Congress can do other than complain, unless it wants to pull the plug altogether, which is highly unlikely.

“There are two flavors of programs in the Pentagon, one is a healthy program and the other is a death spiral,” Aboulafia said. “Unless they want to inflict a death spiral they can give the money and complain while they do it.”

Vera Bergengruen contributed to this article.

Alex Daugherty: 202-383-6049, @alextdaugherty
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/congress/article148683134.html
 
Here's the thing. You guys will be surprised. But I voted Liberal. Change was important. And I actually thought the Liberals were going to have a competition. So I wasn't worried that the F-35 would come through.

Instead, the Liberals invented this whole capability gap nonsense, which even the RCAF Commander was unaware of. Then used that lie to insist on buying only 18 jets. We all know that's a ruse, so they can give the Super Hornet commonality points when they hold the contest later. This shambolic process is why they had to make 235 procurement staff and military officers sign that NDA, when the National Defence Acts, Security of Information Act and QR&Os already cover official secrets.

Most telling, is that they won't even let the air force buy all 18 jets as twin seat like the Aussies did. The Aussies bought the Super Hornet as all twin seats pre-wired for electronic warfare. It allowed them to use the Super Hornets as a front-line fighter for a decade and then transition to other roles as the F-35 came on line.

Now, in Canada, we can't afford two fighter fleets. So we'd prefer an all F-35 fleet. But failing that, two small fleets would have been a better outcome. The Aussie solution. Get Super Hornets that can be transitioned.


Also, a word on process. You'll find very little political dissension in Australia on the F-35 purchase. Or other major defence expenditure. Australia is getting a light carrier/amphibious assault ship. And they have a population of Ontario and Quebec combined. Part of the reason they do well, is because procurement is approved by an all-party committee. Nobody gets to play politics with it after the fact. It's a process they've developed because they are a small developed country in a very rough neighbourhood, with their allies very, very far away. They take their defence seriously. We could learn from their process at a minimum.

As for why this promise is so important? The military is an easy whipping boy. You can use the military to deliver a campaign promise even if it's terrible in the long run, and let's face it, most Canadians won't care. And at the end of the day, we'll operate what we've given and we'll do the jobs we're told. The Army went to Afghanistan in olive green uniforms on essentially dune buggies. That poor equipment cost lives. The public didn't care. So why should the politicians?
I'd say that you didn't care about the lives of the Army personnel either.

The sending of troops "to Afghanistan in olive green uniforms on essentially dune buggies" was done by the Liberals and you just voted for more of the same.

On another note, how did that purchase of 4 used diesel submarines from the UK work out?
 
I'd say that you didn't care about the lives of the Army personnel either.

The sending of troops "to Afghanistan in olive green uniforms on essentially dune buggies" was done by the Liberals and you just voted for more of the same.

Of course. It's not an attack on the public. It's recognition. Defence issues are one among many consideration when any of us for vote. No? And for most people even less so. It's not like I want to see a tired government continue just because my pet issue is favoured. I care about the country as a whole. Wouldn't have put on a uniform if I didn't.

My point, was that the broader public doesn't care about defence issues the same way that say the Australians do. And the Aussies are a fascinating case, because we have similar cultures, similar geographic contexts (big country small population), etc.

I doubt you'd want to see the blind loyalty culture in Canada you see in the US where most law enforcement, military, etc. all vote Republican and the GOP is somehow untouchable on defence issues even when they screw up.

I'd like politicians of all stripes to care about the security of the nation. It shouldn't be a Conservative or Liberal issue.

On another note, how did that purchase of 4 used diesel submarines from the UK work out?

As for the 4 subs, they did exactly what they were supposed to do. Keep us in the submarine game just enough for the Americans to share sub data. The alternative at that time was that Canada exit the submarine game altogether, which would have been far worse.

My primary frustration with Canada is procedural. We don't have regular parliamentary committee briefings by our generals and intelligence officials as in the UK, or the US or Australia. There'd be far less room for politicking if a lot of this discussion was happening in the public forum. You'll see critical reports on procurement in those countries. What you won't see are politicians running on promises to cancel those programs. We leave this to partisan politics instead of using all-party committees. That results in huge leaps left to right with government change, instead of a consistent policy. The Conservative defence policy for example, was a shopping list. It wasn't policy. It didn't lay out a doctrinal framework for the employment of military and defence assets, as a part of a whole of government effort to secure Canada's interests. This government? If the rumours are correct, they'll be focusing on "people", which is again not a defence policy, so much as an HR one. All a result of how defence is handled as an issue in this country.

Things are coming to a head though. And it'll be interesting to see where all this goes. I wonder everyday how much more sovereignty Canadians are willing to give up. The F-35 is a small part of the picture. The Navy is facing massive rust-out. And while everybody talks about the F-35, the Navy's shipbuilding program is $20 billion over budget, has lowered delivery projections already, and the capabilities of those ships are far worse than projected. Meanwhile, the F-35 vs something else is a $1 billion swing at best.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...lan-24-times-over-budget-pbo/article35175469/

All this is going on while the Arctic has become a virtual playground for American, British, French, Russian and Chinese subs. Even our allies don't bother telling Canada when they enter our waters any more.

I am on an educational exchange with the US Navy at the moment. I've sat through planning discussions at conferences. They are planning to operate in the Arctic as though the Canadian government and military doesn't exist. Largely because we don't. Their defence meterological satellites alone, provide more climate data for the Arctic than all resources in the Canadian government combined. The Americans are discussing how to deploy a carrier battle group up there if the ice opens up with climate change. It'll be interesting to see how much sovereignty Canadians are willing to give up in exchange for relying on the US for all their needs. The Americans are pretty blunt when we have these discussions. They won't allow Canada to become a soft vector for attack on their homeland. And if we aren't going to invest, they'll do what they have to do to protect themselves. We don't buy F-35s? Fine. They'll park a carrier full of them up there when needed to counter the Russians, and several squadrons in Alaska as well, and at Thule in Greenland on the other side.

They took the same approach with ballistic missile defence. Liberals didn't sign on. Conservatives maintained that policy of staying out. Canada didn't want to sign on? Fine. Build the bases and plot intercepts (likely over Canadian airspace) with zero input from Canadians. The only saving grace was that they allowed the few Canadians posted to NORAD to have some input and it probably helped shaped slightly more Canada favourable policies.

Can't really blame them for that approach. Our nation's weird immaturity on defence issues has lead to that.
 
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